Ireland and your vote.

[RuggerHug]

I am genuinely interested in all opinions here and I really hope that comes across. I don't want to start arguments or stir up hatred or insults. I've been on these boards for awhile and I know I've probably been quite ranty at times. I really want to not be here, so I'd like to ask everyone who voted, leave or remain, the following and I'd really appreciate your answers/thoughts.

Did ROI and NI play a part in your decision to vote whatever way?

Did the effect of a vote either way to NI and ROI occur at all, if so how?

Since the result, did anyone have a change of heart/become more sure of their vote based on what came out regarding ROI and NI afterwards?

Have you any thoughts on how we've been during it all/how our media portrays activities in the UK(if you're aware of what is said/shown here).

Hopefully this won't come across as trying to start a fight but, in all of this, did you care about us and the fallout or did you consider it not the UKs/anyone elses problem?

For disclosure, I'm Irish, in ROI, spent a lot of time at the border/in NI before the GFA, not as much after. Anyone I know in the UK that had a vote voted remain, I know 1 Leave voter(who lives in ROI).

Thanks in advance for sharing your thoughts.

In fact the NI Secretary in 2016 said there would be no change, no issues, things would remain the same between NI and Ireland. So do you think they UK government should be penalised for lying to the British people?

It was mentioned before the referendum, by both sides.

If you read the speeches by Blair and Major, dismissed as project fear at the time, they were extremely prescient.

Whereas the claims by Johnson and Villiers and others were, as subsequent events have shown, utter ignorant bullshit.

@Prettybird

Comments made by Tony Blair to people in UK will have fallen on deaf ears. Many in the UK see Labour government of 1997-2010 as the reason for uncontrolled immigration. Also the famous note "there is no money left" is seen by many as the reason for austerity measures implemented by the subsequent Conservative government.

Also Blair seen as yet another champagne socialist. Preached equality and New Labour the party for the many as opposed to the few, but still made a fortune from his career in politics and sends children to private schools, etc.

He told the BBC a Brexit would leave arrangements on the Irish border "absolutely unchanged"

He is still saying the same now. Most checks will be done online and there will be minimal physical checks conducted away from the border. Hence the invisible border will remain as it is now.

Here's what Mrs May, then the Home Secretary, sais before the referendum:

The British home secretary has warned of Irish Border controls in the event of Brexitt^ during a visit to Northern Irelandd^ to campaign for a remain vote in Thursday’s referendum on the UK’s EU membership.
While in Co Down on Tuesday, Theresa Mayy^ said it was “inconceivable” that there would not be changes to current arrangements between the North and the Republic if the UK votes to leave the EU.

I just don't understand why the leavers aren't up in arms about the fact their government lied to them and so has caused the delay in Brexit happening. They said Brexit would be easy, no problems getting a deal, no problems with NI, having our cake and eating it. They lied... Why are leavers so angry at the E U and Ireland, they warned about these issues before the vote,is it their fault their warnings were ignored? Seriously if you can't trust your government how can you trust them to run your country when they have to answer to no one. Who will make sure that workers rights with be safe guarded, yes I know the UK were involved in creating these rights but can you genuinely say that you can trust this government to maintain them?

Yes Mystery and he is still lying, it's just that leavers are happy with the narrative so ignore the truth.

From an article in March 2016, clearly laying out the conflict of interests between the GFA and Brexit in Northern Ireland:

Since the announcementt^ of 23 June as the referendum date, much attention has been paid to the ‘Gang of Six’ senior ministers who formally broke ranks with their Cabinet colleagues to announce they would campaign to leave the EU. Of them all, it is Theresa Villiers, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, whose position could prove the most problematic as David Cameron struggles to maintain both the unity of his government and its capacity to govern effectively. In short, his most senior minister in Belfast will be campaigning for a referendum outcome that could have profound consequences for Northern Ireland and its strained peace process, and for relations with its closest neighbour, the Republic of Ireland.

In short, it is not possible to say that the impact on Northern Ireland was not discussed and that people were not aware of the likely issues. But they were dismissed as project fear by the same people who are now in government, preventing a wider debate among the general public.

This is why asking a simplistic binary question about a hugely complex issue, in a referendum, should not be possible
Indeed. There are too many factors and individual voters tend not to take a balanced view, instead prioritising issues that affect them personally. In my village a lot of people voted Leave because of the visible negative impact of EU immigration from Poland and Romania, without considering issues such as NI that don’t impact on them directly.

The fact remains it's in the media now
But it’s too late for voters to do anything about it now. It’s in the hands of the politicians.

Mystery I'll bite, the fact it wasn't mentioned enough before the referendum is a disgrace

Not about biting or point scoring, but pointing out the fact that UK government who were heading the campaign for remain, as opposed to Blair and Major, did not mention NI or GFA in their official documentation (the leaflet ) and website www.gov.uk

The fact remains it's in the media now, it is being spoken about how by officials and government members

That is correct. However, I don't trust UK remain MPs are referencing NI and GFA now. They had time to present those arguments prior to the referendum on both the £9 Million spent on leaflets and their official website.

If NI and GFA are such big issues to be considered why did remain campaign wait until after the lost to raise such issues? Sounds awfully like clutching at straws in the hope NI and GFA cancels Brexit.

Surely your post Mystery proves that the British people were not given all the facts to make a conscious decision. Shouldn't cause a doubt to the results of the referendum?

UK government who headed the remain campaign presented the facts they thought were relevant such as; economic impacts, jobs, travel, security, etc. It is the responsibility of those heading the campaign to research and present their arguments before people vote. The argument that people would have voted differently if different information is speculation.

Making the assumption that people in NI know massively more about NI and the GFA than anyone else in the UK, it is astonishing that NI vote to remain was less than that of Scotland. If leaving the EU is certain to wreck NI, why did anyone in NI vote leave? Surely if they were all bothered it would have been 100% vote to remain?

People heard what they wanted to hear.

NI and the GFA were discussed, just as JIT imports were and security/scientific co-op, it was certainly a big factor in my vote choice.

All leavers heard though was immigration/ECJ/sovereignty/take back control.

Anyone who has watched the BBC4 series on NI and the Troubles, should realise how quickly violence can spiral out of control.

Slight tangent but anyone who is saying they don't know alot about NIs history but are interested can I recommend the following.

On Netflix, The Miami Showband Massacre.

On BBC player, Spotlight on the Troubles (this is a long series though).

On the RTE player, Shooting the Darkness. Shoulder to Shoulder.

There's a lot out there but these are recent enough.

If you want a more light hearted viewing experience, I can't recommend Derry Girls enough.

I just don't understand why the leavers aren't up in arms about the fact their government lied to them and so has caused the delay in Brexit happening

Government lied on the leaflet about honouring the result whatever the outcome.

@RuggerHug , I admire your patience and thoroughness.
I am absolutely flabbergasted by posters on here suggesting this is now out of people's hands and it's up to politicians.
To do what? If you want Leave, it has to be an orderly Brexit that doesn't mess with GFA. Right now, if you voted Leave, Johnson and his crew are using your vote as a reason to threaten GFA. If you don't want them to do that and still deliver an orderly Brexit, you should tell them. Now. In an email to your MP.
And if you are on here regularly you should make it clear that you do not want No Deal but you want an orderly Brexit which doesn't mess with GFA.
Like the one already offered in WA. Or with an NI only backstop. Which only kicks in if we don't find a technical solution. That's why it's called a backstop.

People heard what they wanted to hear.
Exactly, another point when posters point out that NI voted to remain they were quickly told it was an all UK vote. So NI is an all UK problem that has to be resolved before a deal. The UK didn't want Mays deal, the EU don't want Boris's. So it's back to the drawing board, if Boris hadn't decided to play games and not give his agreement until the last minute then there would have been time to negotiate but he didn't . So no one is to blame for this except Boris and his cabinet.

@bellinisurge

And if you are on here regularly you should make it clear that you do not want No Deal but you want an orderly Brexit which doesn't mess with GFA

Is answered by:

There are too many factors and individual voters tend not to take a balanced view, instead prioritising issues that affect them personally. In my village a lot of people voted Leave because of the visible negative impact of EU immigration from Poland and Romania, without considering issues such as NI that don’t impact on them directly

People are free to choose how and why they vote. Nobody on the planet is entitled to tell anyone else how they should vote.

NI and the GFA were discussed but any concerns were dismissed and minimised. Any suggestions that there could be a return to a hard border in Ireland leading to a return to violence were absolutely rubbished as project fear and 'we will not give in to terrorists' etc.

What was stark was going back to visit family in ROI following the referendum and Brexit was the main topic of conversation there. People seemed far more informed and interested than many I know in the UK and the media there is so much better and less divisive and inflammatory. Perhaps also because for those on both sides of the border they understand the real consequences and value peace and prosperity above all else.

People heard what they wanted to hear

Has that not been the case since humans have been in existence?

NI and the GFA were discussed

Not on the UK governments leaflet and website though.

, just as JIT imports were and security/scientific co-op, it was certainly a big factor in my vote choice

That is your entitlement

All leavers heard though was immigration/ECJ/sovereignty/take back control

That is their entitlement.

Anyone who has watched the BBC4 series on NI and the Troubles, should realise how quickly violence can spiral out of control

Maybe no everyone watches those programmes? Even if they did they may not be that bothered if it does not affect them directly. AthollPlace posts makes that point.

Again I repeat no one is stopping the UK from leaving but if they want to continue to trade with the EU they have to agree to a deal that works for both sides.

NI is mentioned in the pre referendum leaflet.

Maybe no everyone watches those programmes
There are loads of people who don’t watch them. That sort of content won’t get seen by the majority unless they show it in the advert breaks on X Factor.

If you don't want them to do that and still deliver an orderly Brexit
Many people just want Brexit at any cost. Particularly if that cost is for others not for themselves.

"Many people just want Brexit at any cost. Particularly if that cost is for others not for themselves."
Well that is something we agree on.

That leaflet linked to above is an “easy read” version. Is there another version?

Try this link

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

NI is mentioned in the pre referendum leaflet

Where? Which page?