The Reconciliation Cafe

[QueerVictoria]

Hello! Shall we try to do this? A place where Leavers and Remainers come in peace and attempt to find a way forward where we drink lager & sancerre and chianti and think of what unites instead of what divides? Terribly idealistic? How about showing our best side?

Time to reset the argument to be about what we want, not what we do not.

Absolutely ListeningQuietly.

Thanks to OP, a reconciliation thread is much needed.

Half of the issue I see now is that when people disagree on points, it is seen as a personal attack and encourages people to double down on their beliefs.

This is so divisive, and exactly what the masterminds behind the leave campaign wanted. They wanted to separate us into tribes, so vehemently on opposing sides of an argument that we could not unite for anything else. This method of pitting us against one another has helped them, in that they are quietly going about achieving what they want without much pushback from us, because we're too busy bickering about how one side was right and the other wrong.

Whilst we're bickering amongst ourselves, who is watching what the masterminds are doing? Sk many have suffered and plenty have died as a result of austerity, but who is talking about this? The sole focus is on brexit, little else is being discussed. They are being allowed to get away with all sorts of stuff, simply because our media are keeping brexit as the headline and nothing else is brought to the front. It's like smoke and mirrors constantly.

Rather than focussing on asking why people voted the way they did, we should be talking to one another about current issues and how best to tackle them. The rise in knife crime is not going to be slowed down by a prime minister implying that violence in the name of democracy is acceptable. All acts of violence, and incitement to violence, should be condemned- all sides should be able to agree this because the reality is that this could affect any one of us and it's scary. We should be holding our government to account on all fronts, but by pitting us against one another and making us pick sides they can effectively manage the discussions to deflect blame away from them on multitudes of issues simply by saying "blame them, they're the ones trying to stop brexit and therefore stopping us doing work on anything else". This encourages leave voters to rally behind the PM because he's on their side, whilst also furthering the divide and pushing remain voters away by blaming them for issues which it is the government not addressing.

It's a constant battle, and we're allowing ourselves to be used as pawns by people who simply don't care about our lives. It's time to stop focusing on how someone voted 3 years ago, and to instead focus on holding our elected representatives to account.

Hello Peacemakers!

I have the lurgy so yesterday just floated from bed to sofa and could not catch up. I am going to read back and comment a bit better later but in the meanwhile keep on keeping on fraternising with the enemy .

Make tea not war! :)

What are your priorities other than Brexit Mummy and other leave voters ? What should the Government be prioritising in your opinion?

Following NoMoreMonkeys and this above, perhaps we can agree on a list of problems.
Unaffordability of housing, divide into housing haves and have-nots, low wages, increasing skills and knowledge requirements for less pay in jobs, increased requirements to work for free or even pay to work, poor employment protections in law, low levels of recourse to law to enforce that protection, and climate change would all be on my list.

I have tended to avoid these threads as I dislike the vitriol that tends to wash around.

I voted Leave, but I can still get behind most of what @Miljah said on p.5. I think that the vote was so narrow that there is absolutely no mandate for a hard Brexit.

I voted because I have always voted (except for the police commissioner, because that seemed pointless and even more pointless somewhere rural like here where 10 cops cover >120 sq miles).

I voted after a lot of heart searching, and for me the issue wasn't immigrants (I know, like, am related to, many, many immigrants) but population growth partly caused by immigration. This is a small island with poor food security, increasing issues with water supply (particularly where I live, where houses are being built on Grade A farmland at a rate of knots) and massive issues with its wildlife and open spaces.

I think the way Brexit has been handled is an utter farce which has destroyed my already rather cautious faith in our political class.

Can I offer everyone a slice of chocolate cake (vegan if necessary, even though I am a devout omnivore) and a soothing walk in our local woods (next to a building site)?

My biggest fear about Brexit is that people have fixed their issues with government onto that issue
and after Brexit happens which sadly I think it will
are then going to have to deal with those issues
without the EU as the excuse not to

Sadly we have a cohort of politicians (of every hue and cry) who are not capable of proper decision making.

Hence why I say the focus should be on Climate Change
and let the young lead the debate

And a rather excellent Leaf means Leaf to maintain calmness

Well all of those request are ENTIRELY down to UK government policy for the last 30 years or more and precisely bugger all to do with the EU.
PK Blair should have put some restrictions in place, like the rest of the EU did, when some of the more recent countries joined the EU. This is BRITISH politicians alone allowing a few problems to arise. Immigration in itself is NOT a problem as long as it is 'managed', and local infrastructure is adjusted accordingly.
ID cards, and entry requirements are common across the EU and used intelligently, can ward off some problems.
Climate change, well that will go out the window when you get into bed with Trump and the Chinese leader.
Reconciliation cannot happen until leavers /Brexiteers 'own' the problems they have created and suggest significant comptomises for them to make.
The world is looking on hungrily and will 'eat' the UK when it leaves the 'relative safety`of the EU..
Stop accepting the lies of BJ and many in the cabinet. They are not able to accomplish what some are now saying they want and BJ basically doesn't want to.
The Conservatives have had 3 years to make positive changes but they have done nothing except bicker and whine over all this time.
THe EU has not constrained anything, so why have they done nothing?

My biggest fear about Brexit is that people have fixed their issues with government onto that issue.

That's absolutely what happened during the referendum. There were numerous reasons why people voted Leave that had nothing to do with the EU. If we our political parties can address some of their concerns, then we can start moving forward.

OP, I think a Reconciliation Cafe is a lovely idea.

Just to bring the thread back to its original purpose, thank you to PP for the lovely autumn photos. The UK is a beautiful country and one of the nicest things are that wherever we are, we are never really that far from the sea or the moors or areas of outstanding beauty.

In my little corner of Wiltshire, I'm leaving bags of juicy pears from our pear tree on our neighbours' doorsteps (with no regard to how they may have voted). In return, they've been leaving bags of delicious cooking apples on our doorstep. Even though they know how I voted.

Winter? Bring it on. There'll be enough apple purée in the freezer to keep us in apple pies and crumbles till well after Christmas. That's enough to gladden any heart.

Mine's a cuppa, by the way.

The UK is, and has always been, a country that looks outwards and trades with the world.
This was a plant that came to the UK as part of Empire the UK taking over other countries and telling them how to live their lives and run their governments
Now we are more equal, linked by the EU and the UN -
long may equality flourish

Immigration in itself is NOT a problem as long as it is 'managed', and local infrastructure is adjusted accordingly.
My understanding is that anyone from the EU is entitled to enter the UK, and if economically active is entitled to stay. That being the case, I don't see how our government could manage numbers.

I am happy to be corrected: I am here to learn. I accept that successive governments have dealt ineptly with the EU.

Grumpy
and if economically active is entitled to stay
And if not can be required to leave .....
Other EU countries bother, the UK has not .... a UK failing, not an EU one.
Most other EU countries require one to register and give home and work address within 3 months
the unregistered are sent back whence they came.
The UK has always rejected ID cards and registration (goes back to medieval times)

@ListeningQuietly but that doesn't control the numbers settling, does it? That was the point I was making.

And to say again, I have nothing against individual immigrants. It's the relatively rapid growth in the UK's population that is an issue.

Sorry, OP - I'm not if this was the purpose of your café.

It's the relatively rapid growth in the UK's population that is an issue.
The immigrants used to be brown
in recent decades they have been white
but as the native UK birth rate has been below replacement since the 50's, the immigrants keep coming.
The vast bulk of the recent (post 1970) increase in the UK population has been ageing - people who used to die at 60 now live till 80 with East European carers
and to maintain enough workers to look after the old Brits for the next 20 years the population needs to keep bringing in young fit people from somewhere.

Demographics is fascinating and great for putting politics into perspective

hence why I am certain that only by focusing on Climate Change can the UK reconcile

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman
The actual total numbers of immigrants is not that significant if the host country adapts suitably. The UK is not over populated. It is badly managed and having employment near where people libe is more significant than just total numbers. London, with it's almost sixth of the UK population, thrives and has good infrastructure and works well.
Public transport and other services in so many other cities is woefully inadqeuate in comparison and that is GOVERNMENT CHOICE.
THe industrial herritage outside London where much of the UK's wealth was created, has just been abandoned by successive governments over the years. That is what needs to change but the Tories in particular won't and Corbyn and Labour are hardly any better, because they have no clue.. Thus one is creating ineuality deliberately and Labout through incompetence and out dated 'business' models.

@ListeningQuietly, I get what you are saying, but at some point, if we want to deal with climate change and the destruction of the natural world, we might have to consider how to cope with a falling population worldwide.

Since 1970 the population of the UK has gone up from 56 million to 66 million. Per Wikipedia, over 9 million people in the UK were born abroad. So I don't think that your claim about population growth being due largely to aging is correct.

The housing shortage is a house shortage, made worse by the effect of council-house sell-offs and a generation of retired couples 'bedroom blocking' by not moving on from their 3,4 and 5 bedroom castles.

The solution is not to deport people but to build more houses, for which you will need people who can build houses: Brickies, Sparks, Plumbers, Plasterers, many of whom will of necessity have to come from overseas, as they have done since the days of the Irish Navvies in the 18th century.

@54321go, if you think the UK is not crowded, we are not going to agree. This is one of the most densely populated countries in the world (ruling out various city states like Singapore).

London's public transport doesn't fill me with joy (compared to the Glasgow subway, for example), and getting in and out by train is a bloody lottery, in my experience.

the 32nd most densely populated territory on Earth. Well behind Netherlands and Belgium.

Grumpy
Demographics is about numbers
and the numbers here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom
show that the number of pensioners as a proportion of adults is rising inexorably.
If you go to a doctors surgery, the patients are elderly Brits and the doctors are young Europeans
Brexit will change the latter but not the former

Folks born broad include British Army kids by the way ;-)

I have only lived and worked across most of the UK for 60 years and there is PLENTY of space. but granted, much of it is not used intelligently. and the issue of housing is a problem that has been deliberately created by builders and planners with their own agendas (like profit), with collusion with government. (hho get a 'bung' from the big housebuilders.
These things are only a problem because the government doesn't want to fix it and plan properly.
Throughout histoort there has always been movement of employees to do whatever jobs were important at the time.
So, in the spirit of equality, all you women, get yourselves into college to learn housebuilding trades, such as bricklaying etc. It's not difficult. Maybe get a business loan and set up. your own enterprise.
Or go on a predominantly women's chat/website and complain about that too.

Of those ahead of us, 7 are city states (or urban areas with a degree of independence - Hong Kong isn't exactly a country). There are almost 170 countries less densely populated than ours. So yes, we are well up there. England in particular is very densely populated, with high levels of housebuilding in some of it's driest areas.

Grumpy
England in particular is very densely populated, with high levels of housebuilding in some of it's driest areas.
And yet much of Hampshire and Sussex are too sparse to justify fibre broadband according to Openreach.
Please do not conflate population density with Brexit.

THe core point is that leaving the EU will not change the UK's demographic pressures
it will just alter the skin tone

the lack of funding / housing / equality
is ALL down to Westminster
and will only get worse once the drawbridge has been pulled up

*its

I never said we didn't have an aging population.

I never suggested 'deporting' anyone, but that language has popped up.

I've lived most of my life in the UK but I have also lived abroad, and by comparison, this is a crowded country. We only produce about half our own food, despite the efficiency of our farms. I can see food security being a big issue with global warming. We might be lucky - warm weather allowing double cropping - or we might be unlucky and parch (the last two summers have been very dry).

We seem to have got somewhat sidetracked from Brexit. Is that a good thing?