The Reconciliation Cafe

[QueerVictoria]

Hello! Shall we try to do this? A place where Leavers and Remainers come in peace and attempt to find a way forward where we drink lager & sancerre and chianti and think of what unites instead of what divides? Terribly idealistic? How about showing our best side?

Hi Miljah

Haha. Complete waste of time trying to create a truce between leavers and Remainers.

The Remainers are always quick to pour vitriol on any Leaver daring to put their head above the parapet and Leavers are sick of being called thick and ignorant and prefer to hide away in the Brexit closet. Never the Twain shall meet, as they say.

Pity.....

At what point do facts become vitrioloc?

Oh fuck off. I'm sick of reading arguments between Remainers and Leavers. OP QueerVictoria asked for a nice civilised thread about reconcile and peace. There are plenty of threads to vent your feelings on, bugger off there. I want to talk about LEAVES!

Calming leaves

Rather different from vitriolic leavers

picture fail

Wine for all on prescription

French wine? Italian? Portuguese? German? Spanish? So much lovely choice!

It may be a waste of time but it is interesting. Of the leave voters I've engaged with here and IRL (very few admittedly) they are not thick or racist. Naive or trusting or maybe just shealtered perhaps (I'm not sure the very real issues that caused them to vote leave will be solved by the UK leaving the EU). Of course there are the authoritarian, shouty ones too but I am less interested in those ones. Too predictable. I hope the cafe stays open for the foreseeable.

Political disputes do not result from differing levels of intelligence or education but from a difference of perspective and values.

Remainers tend to be more long-sighted and sometimes oblivious to the effects their lofty principles have, or fail to have, on left-behind communities. Leavers are more short-sighted and better at analysing the problem than seeing the flaws in the proposed 'solution.'

Remainers are also often mercantilist in outlook from what they see as a nation with a fixed amount of assets it needs to keep to itself rather than share in a zero-sum game. Leavers are idealist who see positive sums everywhere, even when the fruits of that created wealth are not fairly distributed.

Remainers are also often mercantilist in outlook from what they see as a nation with a fixed amount of assets it needs to keep to itself rather than share in a zero-sum game. Leavers are idealist who see positive sums everywhere, even when the fruits of that created wealth are not fairly distributed.

That's a very odd analysis given the zero-sum approach to Brexit taken by Brexiters. "We won get over it" is about as zero sum an attitude as you can take.

No comma. It is a zero-sum. Brexies are all about Zero-Sum.

Failure to understand the non monetary 'advantages' of the EU is perhaps one of the 'reasons' for leaving. At the end of the day, everyone wants as comfortable and safe a life as posible even if the mechanisms to achieve it are not always obvious.
Things like the EHIC card meaning that if you do have a medical problem anywhere in the whole of Europe, you will be looked after.
Having just 'spent' £10K for a few days in hospital this would cripple many travellers (financially).
Leavers being just 'idealist' they are denying real world truths.
Yes being in the EU is a bit like being in a priviliged club. there are some constraint, but then the EU is a form of protection from being ravaged by China and the USA.
Workers rights for example, out of the 'club' workers in the UK will be pitching against the sweatshops of Vietnam, Thailand etc.
What do you mean you want more than 30 Dollars a week pay??

I thought his thread was about having a truce! It's horrible having peole at each other's throats all the time, although it mostky seems to be on social media. I have firends who voted the opposite way to me and we are still friends, though we don't really discuss the B word.

I am a remainer but I think we have to leave, but only if an agreement can be reached. If not, then we perhaps we need another referendum with two choices, leave with no deal or remain.

Sorry for typos.

I don't see any evidence of a desire for a truce tbh.

You don't reach truces by talking about cats and cake, you reach truces by having an honest discussion about choices and trade offs.

If we are getting into generalisations, Leavers are revolutionaries. They want change. They don't think things through because revolutionaries don't tend to do that in detail. They just know that what they have isn't what they want. French Revolution was all about overthrowing the inequalities they saw in the current situation. Russian revolutionaries ditto. They didn't want to be ruled by an elite with no conception of their lives. They all had an ideal vision in mind, but no real plan. Maybe a little more planning and discussion? .

Remainers are like the elite in that they benefit from the current situation, as did the French and Russian elite, and want to maintain the status quo. This is witnessed by the condescending, scathing attitude to the 'unwashed, ill educated masses'. A little more empathy is called for?

Maybe if both sides understood the other's better, instead of name calling and blinkering their world view to suit their narrative, a more civilised cup of coffee and cake could be ordered.

Mines a latte....

Reconciliation will come when the bigger issues start to bite.

Maybe the most important reconciliation is not between leavers and remainers but between mostly southern mostly comfortably off mostly older leavers (the majority of leavers) and less well off, mostly northern leavers. It would be very refreshing to see a open conversation between these perspectives come to a united position on what they want and not direct the conversation on the people who don't want anything to do with leaving. I don't know. It's all such a mess. 😔

For many Northern Labour constituency leavers, it was almost entirely about immigration and its perceived effect on jobs, housing and other services. Not sure what it was about for better-off but not filthy rich leavers, but a lot of it looked like nostalgic reactionary emotion.

There were also a lot of folk for whom it was just an excuse to kick Cameron and Osborne up the arse.

Remainers were almost all small c conservatives who recognise the EU has many faults, but the risks of leaving and the uncertainty of those risks were clearly worse.

For many Northern Labour constituency leavers, it was almost entirely about immigration and its perceived effect on jobs, housing and other services.

I agree with this, but it was also about a general feeling of not having any say in anything. The NE labour areas have generally been hardest hit by cutbacks. This has led to the barmy idea that Brexit will give us back control. The EU is just being blamed, whilst they are all worshipping the ground that the Tory MP walks on.

For many years successive UK governments have refused to adress the issues caused by failing world markets for UK made products and the fact that practically anything can be made either beetter or cheaper outside the UK plus there has been no attempt at proper rejuvenation of former heavy industry areas of the UK. Basically the bankers have made their profits from the old industries and now they have buggered off and trade overseas instead.. Rather than being grown ups and accepting and dealing with problems, they have simply told lies and blamed everyone except themselves, scapegoating the EU.
If you jump into your car and it won't go. You first have to check there is fuel and that no one has nicked the wheels. Establish the real cause before blaming others.
While Blair and others should have considered the possible problems that could arise through immigration, they had all the tools necessary but didn't bother to use them.
So many leavers are stuck with the mentality that was shown 3 years ago. the problems will simply get worse not better and Bojo and the muffins have still not actually done anything to redress the issues. saying they will spend loads on various things but unable to say where the money will really come from.

There was also a strong 'kick the Tories' vote from Labour areas, thanks in part to Labour's dismal campaign in the referendum under closet leaver Corbyn.

The problem of UK manufacturing's poor productivity goes back more than a century. The French work significantly less hours but produce more in that time because they have modern efficient plant and infrastructure with more nuclear electricity than they know what to do with. The Germans plan for the long-term and invest whilst UK shareholders are short-term dividend. junkies. Our management, especially in SMEs and private firms, is woefully underqualified, and Priti Patel has the cheek to blame 'lazy' British workers who don't put in Indian hours for Indian wages.

Another election, and we shall have the Tories blaming Labour for the crash of 2008, when at the time the Tory complaint was that there was not nearly enough deregulation. Gordon Brown kept us out of the Euro and 'saved the world.' History will be kind to him, unlike his trio of idiot sucessors.

I'm ready for reconciliation. Remainer but currently visiting Leave family members . Sick of arguing and sniping over dinner. I have always wanted no Brexit but now I just don't see a peaceful way forward for the country (or my extended family, not that it matters too much) if that happens.
We need a deal however crappy it is.

So long as there are people who come up with drivel like yellowallpaper above, reconciliation is unlikely. I'm a remainer. I object to being portrayed as 'elite' when I'm not and think it's beyond stupid to compare leavers with 'revolutionaries', particularly as they don't seem to recognise that their 'enemy' or 'oppressor' is not the EU, but successive governments who have allowed the gulf between rich and poor to grow ever wider. Brexit isn't some kind of class war and I'm heartily sick of people trying to paint it as such.