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Brexit

Westministenders: Conference Cult

991 replies

RedToothBrush · 30/09/2019 17:45

Is it over yet?

The Tory Party Conference is in full swing in the Manchester Rain, and is proving to be its usual fun.

Johnson is caught up in all sorts of allegations of abuses of power - the non-declaration of his "friendship" to a busty blonde whom was getting a large tax payer grant, and then there the Odey question after his sister said he was under the control of the Hedge Funders.

And thats before we talk about the 40 hospitals, his provocative language and how many times he can say the word surrender.

There is lots of distancing from Lyton Crosby. And accusations that Johnson has gone 'rogue' only listening to the wisdom of Cummings and Symonds.

The Queen apparently has asked for advice as to under what circumstance she can dismiss a PM.

AND NO ONE IS EVEN TALKING ABOUT A DEAL.

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unwravellingagain · 30/09/2019 20:32

6m
.@AlistairBurtUK: “most EU regulations which affect us are British made...The Trump trade deal? You just wait for it. Trump’s eyes will light up. It’ll be a deal which suits them.”

Burt is a former senior minister at the Foreign Office.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/09/2019 20:37

I don't think our democracy - or that of the USA and other Western democracies - is definitely doomed,
but I think the UK is in grave danger of losing our democracy
and hardly anyone seems to realise it, even among politicians

Too many people are still indulging in party politics as usual, with Tory supporters engaging in whataboutery and instinctively lining up the wagons around BJ.

I don't know which countries may fall,
whether e.g. Hungary & Poland can be hauled back after having lost, for now at least

It may be that we will have a 2nd "Iron Curtain", but not of communist countries, but of countries taken over by populist dictatorships
(even if they still hold elections, as Russia & Hungary do)

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/09/2019 20:39

and more the party that Mosely would have created
Especially if Churchill had been deposed and the UK had made peace with Hitler

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Basilpots · 30/09/2019 20:40

twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1178732113367097347?s=21

unavel just reading it all they’ve gone properly rogue.

Think they must be reading this thread.

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Random18 · 30/09/2019 20:45

Peregrina my concern is that Gove as PM is the ultimate goal.

Him and Cummings go way back. Did Gove get told to stab BJ in the back before?

Put BJ in at this time and then bring him down and get who you really want in place to clear up the mess.

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unwravellingagain · 30/09/2019 20:47

@basilpots it's extraordinary, isn't it. A small glimmer of hope in that sentient people are speaking the truth about the situation.

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Runningintothesunset · 30/09/2019 20:48

My local “get ready for Brexit” session has been announced, on 29th October Hmm

Here’s the blurb, but if they genuinely think we’re leaving on 31st then a massive case of leaving it all a bit late surely Confused


Practical session to help exporting businesses to prepare for Brexit

Date: Tuesday, 29 October from 9am

This event is one a series being hosted by the Department for International Trade events to help businesses who export goods prepare for Brexit.

The event will help you build a personalised action plan which includes:

paperwork needed to continue exporting
impact on supply chains
changes to regulations and contracts
where to find tariff information, commodity codes and duty rates
what you might need to speak to customers and employees about
moving goods across borders
business travel to the EU
providing services to EU clients
how to treat personal data

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Basilpots · 30/09/2019 20:51

@unwravellingagain

Almost convinced they post on here. Hmm

Especially after Gaukes comment about berets....

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PerkingFaintly · 30/09/2019 20:51

PMK with Cake. Just because I can.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/09/2019 20:51

The Cabinet & govt are pretty hardline Brexiters, but there are still influential & sensible traditional "Conservative" MPs like Tom Tugenhadt

  • several younger MPs like him from their 2010 & 2015 intakes which were said by many to be their best in 30 years

    Even in the Cabinet, there are persistent reports that some are ready to force BJ to turn aside from No Deal - and from the populist rhetoric being used to drive it

    Gove is said to have been very alarmed when he learned at DEFRA some of consequences of No Deal
    and at least some other ministers have been listening to civil service briefings, instead of rejecting them as Remainer rubbish.

    BUT
    They are not organised
    they do not want to sacrifice promising careers
    loyalty to any PM and to beating labour are ingrained
    They would have great difficulty cooperating with any more than the 22 rebel Tories within the Rebel Alliance.

    it depends whether they can bring themselves to abandon tribalism and put the country first, even if that means losing at least the next GE and damaging their party.

    And whether they can do this in time
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BigChocFrenzy · 30/09/2019 20:52

Crikey, running You'll be rather busy fitting all that in by 31.10

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cherin · 30/09/2019 20:54

I received the notes from the govt! It’s an email with 5mb of zipped files. Maybe message me privately if you want to see them. Lots of pointing to the gov.uk website actually

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cherin · 30/09/2019 20:57

Cats must have tiny livers. I don’t think it’s worth it. Not when they can be useful warming you up (when you least need it, of course)
I can post pictures of ripe tomatoes- no quadrupeds in the family, but one allotment (currently more like a mud bath than a real allotment plot, but we picked up the last tomatoes over the we, and they are now a delicious passata)

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DGRossetti · 30/09/2019 20:59

Returning to the idea that Trump might get involved in an FBI shootout ... worth remembering Waco ?

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dontcallmelen · 30/09/2019 21:01

PMK thank you as always, have steered clear of conference my dodgy heart can’t take it.

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RedToothBrush · 30/09/2019 21:01

^So these Black Swans are the result of 30 years investment in rightwing think tanks in the USA & UK, US religious organisations
and of course into psyops to steer public attitudes and finally to inflame them when the time was right - now.^

Thats the thinking really, yes.

One consistent through that actually is Putin. If you follow his career from KGB to FSB to PM to President he was actively involved in and had specialist expert skills personally in Psy-Ops (recognition abilities and recognition of importance of propaganda in a way that British PM's certainly didn't have. Compare with the total lack of self awareness and in touch Ness of Cameron).

And whilst the West celebrated their victories in the spread of liberalism, Putin being an authoritarian had one thing in his favour they didn't. Time. He could afford to sit back and be patient and cultivate a long term disruptive strategy and develop mutually beneficial allegiances with other international oligarchs.

The West meanwhile has lurched from leader to leader and various crisis sparked by being over zealous foreign policy, with poor after thought and planning.

There was massive hypocrisy and then came economic problems (again due to a lack of foresight and planning)

The mismanagement of Western democracy and the rise of personality politics over policy has been a huge contributer.

Blair certainly did start a lot of the rot and he was very much the first of the popularist PM's.

Our electoral system and the USs electoral system make us particularly vulnerable because of their two party nature. France and Germany (and other Western nations) have been a little more immune because of that, and because of their history and being less economically divided between rich and poor.

The US and UK have been sitting ducks, because we have not nurtured our understanding of liberalism and democracy well, as we've polarised between the two parties - Brexit cut through that even more and split the parties in terms of world view along authoritarian and liberalism lines.

Yes a long time in the works, with American and Russian Oligarch interests intersecting in dividing up the spoils of Europe and the UK into spheres of influence and economic goldmine to feast on as disaster capitalists rather than allowing the EU to flourish as a rival block in its own right.

Authoritarianism and Neo-Liberalism merge.

The result creates an economic hardship which is the ideal breeding ground for fascism itself.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete and regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.

Read and put into context with what Cummings and Johnson are saying at the moment. Even if they themselves are not fascist they are building a climate where those views are likely to breed.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism is worth a read about conflicting views on the definition of fascism.

Particularly this point:
John Lukacs argues that there is no such thing as generic fascism. He claims that National Socialism and communism are essentially manifestations of popularism

Which brings me back to Putin and how he was a communist in the USSR who switched to the far right. And the ties between the far left and far right in this country.

There's a bit on the wiki about Putin which is bolded and is perhaps also significant

After Putin resumed the presidency in 2012, his rule is best described as “manual management” as the Russians like to put it. Putin does whatever he wants, with little consideration to the consequences with one important caveat. During the Russian financial crash of August 1998, Putin learned that financial crises are politically destabilizing and must be avoided at all costs. Therefore, he cares about financial stability.

So a full ten years before the 2008 crash he has this lesson that the West failed to comprehend and insulate themselves.

So no, I don't believe there is pure luck here. Brexit certainly presented an ideal opportunity for the trans national oligarchs to exploit. That's Americans, Russians and beyond (note the cosy Saudi relations with UK and Trump in particular).

I don't think it can be blamed on Putin all this said. Its been a deliberate fostering of common interest and pure greed that's come together.

Sigh.

Personally this is what scares me, because how do we as a nation break free of that now, with our social fractures as they are.

The threat isn't just Johnson. And it's certainly wrong to characterise it as him and Cummings alone. Not do I think it is just Farage stood behind waiting as an alternative.

It's like we are at a point where the tension is so high we are just waiting for the glass to shatter for all hell to break loose.

One of my friends posted on FB about the possibility of civil war a couple of days ago and how it was no longer about Brexit but about democracy itself.

I have no idea if he reads here or not. Its possible knowing him.

If he doesn't the fact its not just me here saying it, but a sweeping feeling amongst others more widely both gives me hope and absolutely terrifies me.

It's been a long time coming for people to start to realise the danger. Is it too late?

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cherin · 30/09/2019 21:02

Btw, the latest brilliant plan of Saj is to relax building regulations so you will be able to extend a semi detached up to 2 floors without any permission or your neighbour being able to comment. Lovely.

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prettybird · 30/09/2019 21:03

Our skinny Siamese wouldn't afford much meat - and by all accounts their organs would be toxic Wink But they are good birders and mousers Grin (and Hmm) so can earn their keep in other ways Wink

Red - that's interesting about needing more propaganda, not less. We do certainly need more engaged electorate(s) who are prepared to investigate, question and learn / and not just accept manipulative half-truths.

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dontcallmelen · 30/09/2019 21:05

Ffs that man is truly a blithering idiot.

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flouncyfanny · 30/09/2019 21:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 30/09/2019 21:07

that's interesting about needing more propaganda, not less

Signal to noise ratio ... drown out the signal with more noise.

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RedToothBrush · 30/09/2019 21:10

Think they must be reading this thread

Especially after Gaukes comment about berets

There's been a few times lately when I've worried if I'm actually David Gauke myself.

I am however fairly sure I'm not.

'Multiple Discovery' is a thing though.

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/09/2019 21:11

red I agree it's about far more than BJ and Cummings,
one a privileged lazy blunderer; the other imo not the brilliant schemer he wants people to believe

It's about a whole authoritarian movement, with the Tory & Brexit parties jostling for lead position

In the UK, the Tory party, which has been a UK political fixture for nearly 200 years, has been infiltrated for the last 40+ years
However, the takeover when it came was shockingly sudden - to me, at least.

imo, the authoritarians are not the majority among Tory MPs,
but many voted for BJ simply because they thought he would be the best of the candidates at winning a GE and saving their seats

Some may now have buyers' remorse
We must wait and see if they actually do anything about this

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DGRossetti · 30/09/2019 21:13

'Multiple Discovery' is a thing though.

Rupert Sheldrake would agree Grin ...

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BigChocFrenzy · 30/09/2019 21:14

< eyes red suspiciously >

Are you really Gauke self-IDing both as a woman and a redtoothbrush ? Hmm

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