Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

Thank you for these threads.

Ref the Boris Johnson videos shown on school screens yesterday - @nicktolhurst on Twitter is asking for information - specifically the name of the company which provides the usual content. He hopes to find out who is paying for the BJ films.

I saw the name mentioned on the last thread but can't easily find it. Please pass it on if you can.

There will always be someone you can point to on the other side who did something terrible If that means you excuse everything your side does, then you are very reckless indeed

Well said BCF

I hope that this spotlight that is now being shone on political behaviour in this country will bring about a change. It’s difficult to see how that can happen with Brexit unresolved but political behaviour in this country stinks.

I, for one, am tired of the raucous, boorish behaviour. I want intelligent debate not playing to the gallery on your own side.

Yes very well said BCF as my lovely dad always used to say two wrongs don’t make a right, a cliche I know but actually quite apt.

Lizzie Dearden
@lizziedearden
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3m
Far-right extremists are celebrating Boris Johnson’s “brilliant” comments against "traitor MPs" in parliament

Leaders including Tommy Robinson and Jayda Fransen have already thrown their full weight behind the PM's Brexit stance and comments on Muslims

I do urge everyone to be careful with the 'both sides do it' narrative, it lessens the impact and seeks to avoid the focus on who is actually carrying out the attrocities, currently its the far right in western countries that are killing dissenters

But on that note, I do point to the deliberate attempts of hard left NoroVirus 'journalists' who have tried to sanitise and rebrand communism.

There does seem to be a gap in our historical knowledge as a nation. Understanding of the dangers of Nazism and fascism is known by younger people but there is a blind spot on the behaviour of Stalin and about how the Stasi acted in Eastern Europe.

We should recognise the dangers of both.

This is part of the defence of liberal democracy. We can not defend it, if too many people don't see how power can be abused to control people in other ways (such as through censorship and shouting the word 'bigot' without critical and nuanced understanding and thinking).

I've said this for a long long time now. And I find it frustrating, but the isn't an alternative.

We should recognise the dangers of both.

Couldnt agree more Red

"How many illegal wars has Boris started? How many countries invaded? How many millions dead?"

Cendrillon
Are you really using the Iraq war to justify BJ destroying democracy in the UK ?

We wrecked their country so we deserve to have our own country destroyed ?

What on earth punishment do you think we deserve for slavery ?

btw, almost all Tory MPs supported the Iraq war - a US War for OIl - far more than Labour MPs,
even afterwards when the lies came out, they just condemned the lies, not the war

Blair was obeying the USA - he had to lie to take his own party with him

The Tories have kept some UK troops in Iraq & Afghanistan and have taken part in air strikes against Syria
because the USA demands it

Trump wants the UK to join him in his war against Iran

Leaders including Tommy Robinson and Jayda Fransen have already thrown their full weight behind the PM's Brexit stance and comments on Muslims

Once again, before you start cheering (or voting) look left, look right, and see who's with you. If you find yourself agreeing with pondlife like that, you really need to think very hard about what the fuck you are doing. The Nazis were keen environmentalists, but that wasn't a great reason to support them.

A sad and angry pmk.

@red I agree that BJ deliberately used set phrases to convey a certain message

but I still think a lot of the gloating & ranting was BJ taking the opportunity to vent his fury at being thwarted
and to take out some of his frustration by attacking opposition women MPs and enjoying their fear

He is a loose cannon and his lack of control may lead to mistakes that the opposition can leverage to stop him

Princess Beatrice engaged.
Jacques Chirac has died.
Prince Harry supporting climate strikes.
Trump impeachment grinding on.

Interesting news day.

Jess Phillips on now being great. Statement from Kevin Foster saying all the right words but missing the key point.

Id love it if last nights performance made all parties come out today and say they will give Johnson his VONC whilst backroom dealing to ready the GNU it would take the wind out of their sales for a few days for sure and it would also rob Johnson of his ability to use taxpayer to money to electioneer

Agree with everything you say, BigChoc.

And thank you, your articulacy and thoughtfulness are a real lifeline in such awfulness.

I bloody love Jess Phillips.

Where's the Hulk?

Do you expect that McDonnell will be gentlemanly enough not to use these precedents

I expect that he will do whatever he likes without giving a damn whether the precedent exists or not, especially as he's been saying these things for years, and long before Boris or the referendum!

What I don't believe in is unilateral disarmament - the idea that the right has to meekly control its language while the other side is free to use any and all tactics to tear us down. Red makes a good point about how communism, one of the most destructive ideologies in human history, is seen as cool and edgy by some in the UK - ironically, on the Continent they know better. Bravo for "NoroVirus"!

The one thing I think you're all right about is that the next few months and years are going to determine the future of the country, and all sides know it. Calling for calmness and politeness isn't going to work when every faction from the far left to the far right and everything in between sees their life's ambition just, just out of reach. They're going to give it everything it takes to win, no matter what anyone else thinks about it.

I've said before that last December I switched from Remain to prioritising defending out democratic institutions

Brexit gave the opportunity to the hard right, but this is not about Brexit

It is about the hard right using it so people accept smashing the democratic institutions, so that authoritarian hard right policies can be brought in

The hedge-funders, US big tech & pharma firms that have funded the hard right for years originally wanted to stay in the EU,
but to use the threat of Brexit to force the EU to release the UK from all the laws affecting City of London financial speculations, workers rights, consumer protection, environmental regs etc

They only switched to pushing Brexit once they realised the EU would never allow this

if No Deal happens, then we'll see the real program of policies they want:
freedom for the super-wealthy and big business to do as they want, while the bulk of the population is bound by laws that prevent them resisting

Id love it if last nights performance made all parties come out today and say they will give Johnson his VONC whilst backroom dealing to ready the GNU it would take the wind out of their sales for a few days for sure and it would also rob Johnson of his ability to use taxpayer to money to electioneer

I do find myself wondering how much of what we are seeing with Labour/LibDems is stagecraft intended to keep everyone guessing ?

I'd hope all non-Tory politicians (and even then some) have learned how to play the UK media to their own ends, and (hopefully) come out ahead.

I'm no Corbyn cheerleader, but even I know that he simply can't do anything right for the media, so why bother ? Much better to keep low and let them do the running.

Of course part of that has to involve the faithful really throwing their hands up in despair for the media consumption - they'd smell a rat immediately otherwise.

And even if that isn't what's happening, I'd like to think it's something that's got team Trump Boris worried.

Do the opposition have corkscrew thinkers enough ?

PMK.

Corbyn's current statement is everything I could want. What do you think Cendrillon?

I would love to be fly on the wall in the 1922 committee

I'm seeing a lot of social media pumping out Cedrillon's 'they're all as bad as each other' line.

No.

No, they're not.

Johnson is fronting for those who seek to tear down our institutions.

He's attacked the political ground with an illegal protoguation, he's attacked the legal institutions with his speech, and he's still trying to undermine Parliament.

He's the PM.

It's a different order of danger.

PMK, thank you have nothing to add except extreme sadness & for the first time I’m now actually frightened.

I have been frightened for a long, long time. Seeing it crystallise more or less as I feared doesn't help that.

But its also why I first became so sucked into these threads and so determined as obsessive about them. For the last 3 and a bit years. I knew it was about the need to help educating people and collectively stick together through a time that's frightening.

I recognised the lack of understanding of what democracy is and isn't and its pillars and foundations and how journalism has been failing.

For all the horror of last night, there has been a moment of relief in there too for me.

Many of you, do get it. You understand the danger. You see it. You see its not purely about Brexit. It's about seeking and exposing the truth and understanding the need for honesty and soul searching.

I see the penny dropping left, right and centre. Slowly but surely.

People are starting to see the value of things they didn't before. Things they took for granted. Basic building blocks that keep us free.

There is still so much to do to defend our freedom and liberty.

But.

Now I don't feel as alone as I did on 24th June as I sat on my stairs and cried, fearing what would happen next.

I think things are very bleak but there is also hope that I didn't have before too.

The more people wake up to the fact that Brexit is a symptom of a problem, not the ultimate cause of a problem the better.

No Deal Brexit is the realisation of that and a goal of the far right in order to facilitate their wider goals, which include authoritarian control.

Power is found in knowledge. Always seek the truth and question things and don't take things at face value.

In terms of a VONC, the key issue is timing to ensure that a no-Deal Brexit doesn’t happen by accident.

They need a PM who can request an extension in place quickly.