Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

Also I am another who voted remain but would happily settle for a soft brexit. It seems to be brexiteer type leavers who are becoming more entrenched in their views.
Because the referendum result was so close, a soft brexit would be the most democratic way forward. Which is why Corbyn's stance makes perfect sense to me.

He was apparently quoting the remarks of someone else, ordinary people living ordinary lives. It is entirely normal in everyday British speech to use phrases like 'I could shoot this messenger' or 'I could throttle so and so'.

As a normal person, have you ever threatened a lynching as part of your everyday speech? I don't think so. But thank you for at least being open to my point. If you think I like the breakdown in civil and political norms of recent years, then you're very wrong. Give me boring politeness any day!

"Wrong again - the Labour Party is much, much worse. "

NO.
You are seeing completely through blinkers
No Labour govt has ever sunk anywhere near the depths of this govt
No other govt has attacked the courts, threatened to ignore the law

It is totally different when a govt does or says something, to when an individual politician says something at a boozy party

I have absolutely no party allegiance
I could in normal times vote for any of the 3 main parties, or NI Alliance, SNP, or Plaid, or Green
I vote for the moderate conservatives in Germany, in EP & local elections

Threatening to hammer the better off with taxes is not threatening democracy

Harold WIlson's Labour had taxes on investment income of up to 98%
Democracy was in no danger
There was a "brain drain", but that's what happens from a high tax economy

I could use boring right now. Boring is stable, normal and good. "May you live in interesting times" was the Chinese curse as reported by Terry Pratchett.

I actually used the phrase "I could throttle that person" for doing something yesterday when I tripped over and nearly broke my ankle. Not lynch, no - it's not in my normal vocabulary, although I did hear people saying 'they'll be up for the lynch mob' as a normal phrase years ago.

@Cendrillonsings. Yes, but they are politicians, their words have effects and they know it. You wouldn't say that if you were addressing a work meeting, or a school assembly, and they should be doubly, quadruply aware of how their words will be taken.

Especially in these strange febrile times.

And I think they do know, and they are trying to ferment trouble, in order to make us afraid of what will happen if Brexit is delayed.

We absolutely need to stop making excuses for John McDonell repeating the “lynch the bastard comment” about Ester McVey.

It is part of the vile pattern in British politics of violent language being used to silence (female) opponents through fear and intimidation.

It is a mistake in my view to see this as a BJ issue or a Tory issue. It is a toxic element of the macho adversarial style of British politics.

Another one who would go for 'boring' right now.

Off to check what's planned for today.

Orangin I said "PM"

I said I still think McDonnell should have been kicked out of the party though
because this sort of behaviour has to be stopped as early as possible, before it spreads

BUT
big difference to a backbencher at a boozy party and a PM standing in the HoC and mocking women MPs to their faces

Telling them the threats and danger will continue until they give in to his policies

Remember too the ERG sending messages while May was PM, showing her hanging in a noose

If they do this to their own PM, no wonder they jeered at their opponents

He should have been kicked out of the party

But he wasn't, and he won't be - he's now the number two figure in the Labour party, and the man who in your preferred scenario of the next few weeks / months would become Chancellor!

I'm sure I can easily find other "jokes" from him about locking up his political opponents, if I remember correctly.

Here it is: blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/08/will-john-mcdonnell-lock-tories-up-if-labour-wins-the-next-election/

‘They [the Tories] are social criminals and one day, I warn you, we will try them.’

McDonnell shrugged. ‘I was angry. It was after the first round of benefit cuts.’

Dale pressed him. ‘But “try them”? Under what law?’

‘I might want to invent it,’ said McDonnell.

No troubling tendencies there...

Beautifully put Chazs

I do think there is a failure on the left to call out their own mob culture.

This week at the fringe of the Labour Party Conference there was a Woman's Place Meeting at which Trans Activists banged on the windows deliberately to scare those inside. There have been a huge about of death threats levelled at women trying to raise safeguarding concerns and saying how the system is being used to remove the rights and dignity of women and girls (note same dynamic - the threat to democracy comes from a lack of proper understanding of what safeguarding is, whether it be safeguarding of women or safeguarding of democracy)

The failure to recognise what is going on at the extremes in the name of the Left or Liberals is dangerous as it legitimises the actions and words of the extremes of the Right. It is the very process of polarisation.

As it goes, I generally try to avoid the word fascist these days, even though at times what we are witnessing does met the definition of fascism.

I prefer to use the term authoritarian as its less politically loaded and does not fall as foul of the culture war, as the term is not aligned with the left or right and can be applicable to both.

Using the word fascist tends to play to the fractures in the culture war, and that makes it unhelpful and counterproductive.

I do think we need to take some stock on how name calling is now being used against to score points, and to be cautious about doing so.

I refer to Bercow this morning making the point about viewing those with different opinions as opponents rather than enemies and Jasmin Mujanovic's wise words last night about Democrats having to make peace with the GOP to give moderates an opportunity to have a way out with grace and dignity to face a common threat to democracy and decency.

This is not an easy ask nor task. Not when there are deliberate attempts to upset and incite. It is appealing to emotions to provoke an emotional reaction.

Remember and think about the optics and what Johnson wants his supporters to see: he wants them to see people shouting at him so he can play the victim.

Don't play the game.

As I said before, part of the reason we are in this mess is because the culture war encourages us to turn a blind eye to the unacceptable done by people with whom we share values.

It is possible to both agree with someone on some thing but also be critical of some things they do or say. Indeed it's healthy. The alternative is that we all act and think like robots compiling with the doctrines and rigid belief systems of one side or another. This hands enormous unfettered and unaccountable power to those who are defining those belief systems. It crushes debate and the centre in the process.

Question to Attorney General:

Will this government respect the rule of law?

AG: Yes.

Question to Prime Minister:

Will you respect the law (in this case comply with the "Benn Act")?

PM: No.

There's a dichotomy here, which we now have 5 weeks to resolve.

McDonnell wasn't sacked, so the hard left was not reined back.
They grew stronger

Tory MPs weren't sacked for threatening May with a noose
So their behaviour grew

Every time one side excuses their side taking the next step towards violence & dictatorship, then the other side takes it as licence to do the same and go another big step further when it is their turn

Currently, the hard right have been growing in the US, UK and across the West
The pendulum may look stuck
but that just means when it eventually swings back, it probably won't be to the centre or to the moderate left
but to the hard left, wanting revenge for years of what the right did to their people

After a No Deal Brexit crash, I wouldn't bet on how long we have before the last democratic restraints are smashed and the extremes fight for power

This is a vicious spiral which only grows when people won't condemn their own side because the other side once did something at a much lower level

Break the cycle.

Don't condone the indefensible.

The truth should stand alone. Don't lie to sanitise the unacceptable.

54Hester & others who do not understand how government works. The UK is a representative democracy: you elect MPs to make decisions on your behalf. Referenda in this system are advisory, that is they have no direct, legal effect.
The 2016 vote tells MPs many things, and they have interpreted what the result means in many ways, both from a personal & a party perspective. Thus we are where we are.
The result said 52% voted leave. It is up to MPs to interpret that and implement accordingly.
My own view is that a 3.5 yr old vote needs re-running in light of current information.

No Labour govt has ever sunk anywhere near the depths of this govt

Please. How many illegal wars has Boris started? How many countries invaded? How many millions dead?

Threatening to hammer the better off with taxes is not threatening democracy

It's not just taxes anymore - if you look at the Labour conference, they've moved wholesale into confiscation on an unprecedented scale. Once private property rights disappear, then the real underpinnings of democracy disappear with them. I'm afraid that's much worse than than losing a case in the Supreme Court (and abiding by the ruling!) or rebranding Opposition legislation with a favourable political slant.

You have no idea what's coming if Corbyn and McDonnell get their hands on real power.

Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
Loud desk banging and door banging as @BorisJohnson enters 1922 cttee meeting

Rumours from this will be interesting....

It's. True BigChoc and Red.

But I still, honestly, think there is something distinct about what Johnson is doing.

And it may just be a quantities, not qualitative difference.

But, you're right. It didn't come from nowhere. The water of this violence has been rising for some time - and, yes, elements of the Left have been making that waster rise - adding to it, drinking from it.

This does feel like a step-change, though.

It's hard to articulate how it is s step change without exonerating others of their contribution to this.

But I will try.

Paul Waugh@paulwaugh
Thinking in No10 is PM will not back down re 'Surrender Act' rhetoric cos reflects view of many of public.
^Also view is Parl is "broken". One eg is No10 not given by Speaker usual 45 min notice to respond to @jessphillips
Urgent Q.^
Junior minister Kevin Foster will reply for govt

cendrillon and he should be condemned, as he was
He should have been kicked out of the party

This

I say that as probably the leftiest member of the Westminstender threads.

I do urge everyone to be careful with the 'both sides do it' narrative, it lessens the impact and seeks to avoid the focus on who is actually carrying out the attrocities, currently its the far right in western countries that are killing dissenters

I will re-iterate this though, I do not support any politician who wants to make the country rise up in violence no matter the colour of their rossette

"Thinking in No10 is PM will not back down re 'Surrender Act' rhetoric cos reflects view of many of public."

And who created, supports, enables and inflames that view? These people are supposed to be my superiors. We all of us re-create the world around us, daily, through our interactions with others.

What Johnson is doing is speaking to those who deny any legitimacy to legal and political institutions.

Pure chaos and authoritarianism.

That is the qualitative and quantitative difference.

You can try and deny that all you like - but we see it. And will resist.

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/listen-women-boris-johnson-before-16983229.amp?__twitter_impression=true
Listen to the women, Boris Johnson, before you lose control
Last night female MPs lined up to implore the Prime Minister to tone down his escalating language. He dismissed them. But women instinctively understand how - and why - words get weaponised
By Jen Williams

I've written before about the use of language by politicians seeking to undermine the press, and why that matters, so I won't reiterate that here. But I will quote the same lines written by George Orwell just after World War Two, because they are relevant here, too: “If thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought. A bad usage can spread by tradition and imitation, even among people who should and do know better.”

Women in politics - women generally - understand the relationship between language and power instinctively, because they experience it on a daily basis. They have been dealing with it their whole lives. Language is a weapon not only in political life, but in real life, and women are frequently its target.

Cendrillon So you excuse what the PM did in Parliament,
because of disgraceful things a backbencher or two have said in the past

How the hell does this make you safer if McDonnell ever takes power ? 🤦🏻‍♀️

The precedents have been set:

✅ A PM in the HoC can publicly mock distressed Opposition MPs telling of threats to their families
✅ A PM in the HoC can publicly say the threats & violence will continue until they give in
✅ A PM in the HoC can publicly attack the courts for finding against him
✅ A PM in the HoC can publicly say he won't obey the law

Do you expect that McDonnell will be gentlemanly enough not to use these precedents

Not to take a giant leap further
just as it was a giant leap going from a backbencher sounding offto a PM doing so in the HoC

Anyone who fears either the hard left or hard right in power,
is MAD to excuse the weakening of democratic institutions & constraints

• which after a GE win would be the only effective constraints on their power

There will always be someone you can point to on the other side who did something terrible
If that means you excuse everything your side does, then you are very reckless indeed

PMK, thank you have nothing to add except extreme sadness & for the first time I’m now actually frightened.