Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

I just want the grown ups back. They don't have to be perfect. Just not wild-eyed and abusive.

I for one am impressed by the conduct and bearing of SCOTUK. I can imagine that clip being required viewing for all Law students for decades to come. Maybe not just in the UK either - when you get to that level, a lot of courts reference each other in rulings.

And there is already talk of a succession.

Come on - any successor will be from the same cadre and will carry out the same policies. Their capture of the party machine is virtually complete at this point.

You could always join the Labour Party and vote for the next leader @CendrillonSings. And not in a facile Toby young way.

I have never voted Labour in my life, think Corbyn is a large reason we are in this mess.

Totally. Bailing out the banks. Calling a referendum. Then calling an unnecessary election. Then having to cobble together a deal with nutters and fracture the foundations of democracy in the UK.

Thank god we have the Tories to sort it out for us.

Has anyone fingered Corbyn for the Kennedys yet ?

I wouldn't be so sure, Cendrillon. I am pretty sure that Starmer and Cooper are not of the same ilk.

But that doesn't suit your anti-Labour stance, does it, so best ignore that potential?

Caught up with my friend who has always voted Tory today. He is right wing and we disagreed about Boris getting the PMs job. About a fortnight ago he was in despair saying he thought he was going to vote Corbyn- Boris as PM is so not what he expected. (We had disagreed quite robustly- with me saying my issue with Boris is who is pulling the strings in the background)

Today he is exceedingly grim - he watched Parliament the other night . "There will be deaths". So not all died in the wool Tories are happy with this.

In a strange way it cheered me up, as it proved to me, for the thinking person - they see through it. Unlike an acquaintance, Conservative party member, cancer survivor (who sued and won against the nhs over her treatment) - who thinks this is all great ....... bit like @CendrillonSings

Would Corbyn want to be PM of a coalition/minority govt. where all his USP policies are ruled out and he has to trim and generally do a lot of Blairite stuff?

DGR give it a few minutes I’m sure it can be pinned on him somehow.

It sounds like the argument that Corbyn would be legitimised is that he wouldn't be so scary if he'd already been PM and the sky didn't fall in, leaving him clear to get a majority next time, when it will.

Precisely what I meant.

But that doesn't suit your anti-Labour stance, does it, so best ignore that potential?

Cooper and Starmer are Red Tories as far as the membership are concerned. Haven’t you followed any of the developments within Labour? They barely stepped back from abolishing Tom Watson’s position outright a few days ago!

Having been thanked by Tory voters for the gift that is Corbyn can I also say thank you for Johnson, he is making him seem more acceptable to a few more people if this thread is anything to go by, I'll take it, as long as no one finds out he was a deep cover operative for the Labour party

I think we need a GNU, civility and cooperation. If Jeremy Corbyn resigned or stood aside, that might be more achievable. But we are in much more danger from th3 Right than from the left right now.

I loathe JC also, always have done but would vote for him in a heartbeat if it kept this horrific bunch out of no10.

These are desperate times.

I too would never vote for Corbyn but I have met him. What you see is what you get. He might have political views stuck in the 70s which I do not agree with but he is actually a modest genuinely nice well intentioned man, and a good constituency MP. He regularly turns up to student peace rallies like the Hiroshima remembrance, nothing in it for him in terms of PR with the wider public, genuinely no press there!! Shame he couldn't have left it at that, a leader he is not.

However if the alternative is Bozo who has proved himself again and again to be the opposite of all that, narcissistic, unprincipled, snide, misogynistic, unpleasant, a lazy and uncaring Mayor and MP intent on a course of action that will harm the country purely for his own ends.

Well it isn't hard.........

This is going to be too much for Cendrillion, poster will be rocking in a fetal position chanting free market capitalism to calm themselves down

Would Corbyn want to be PM of a coalition/minority govt. where all his USP policies are ruled out and he has to trim and generally do a lot of Blairite stuff?

Did Churchill ?

I would add both have their poundshop Rasputins so no point making a choice based on that...

Corbyn is a nice guy who cannot see the bad in people. His loyalty to Maduro and Hamas is a product of naivety not knavery.

There's no shame in stealing your opponents best ideas though ....

I do think that Corbyn has been a major issue DG.
He has been weak on Brexit since the start, he has taken years to get to the point where he is now.
Do I remember correctly that he came out the day after the referendum and called for article 50 to be put in place immediately. He had no plan at that point that he had shared and no parliamentary consent for anything.
He has continuously tried to direct focus away from Brexit to other issues.
He has struggled to build consensus on Brexit within and without his own party focusing on shoring up his own power base within his party, see recent moves against Tom Watson.
He very low trust ratings with UK populous mean that the government remains ahead in polls, although polls aren't to be trusted.
So I do think he is better than BJ but that is a very low bar.
I also don't think he is personally horrible in the way BJ is but with regards to Brexit I think he has been a shocker.

This is going to be too much for Cendrillion, poster will be rocking in a fetal position chanting free market capitalism to calm themselves down

We’ll see who’s in what position come the eventual election night. I’m willing to bet there’ll be something of a discrepancy between opinions on here and the national electorate

It's probably not original, but there is the Ben Elton Test for any putative leader, and that's

Who would you trust to look after the coats and handbags while you had a dance ?

By that token, Boris is out (he'd have some hilarious "jape" going on) and Corbyn in.

Cendrillon
My dead cat would be a better UK Government leader than Bozo
therefore saying that Corbyn would be better than Bozo is not exactly setting the bar high.

I lump Seamus Milne in the same category as Dominic Cummings
but know that people like Keir Starmer have more brains than most of the Tory Front bench

and the cool thing is that the Supreme Court Ruling stops Corbyn shutting down parliament for his own daft ends either

Come on - any successor will be from the same cadre and will carry out the same policies. Their capture of the party machine is virtually complete at this point.

That’s probably what they said about Michael Foot, then we got the brilliant John Smith.

I also like, 'Would you trust them with the school hamster over the holidays?'

I can just see BJ putting Fluffy in the tumble dryer for a laugh.

Do I remember correctly that he came out the day after the referendum and called for article 50 to be put in place immediately

Looking back seems like quite a prudent decision, its destroying the Tories from the inside out