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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

OP posts:
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pumkinspicetime · 27/09/2019 16:18

Looking back seems like quite a prudent decision, its destroying the Tories from the inside out

It is destroying the country from inside out.

tobee · 27/09/2019 16:18

Don't think Corbyn is a nice guy who can't see wrong in people. Otherwise he wouldn't pick sides the way he does: Hamas over Jews, Sinn Fein over UVF/UFF, men saying they are women over women with vaginas etc.

Still prefer him to Johnson.

tobee · 27/09/2019 16:20

Johnson putting Hammy in the tumble dryer for a laugh = pre Cummings

Johnson pulling Hammy's legs off one by one = after Cummings

JustAnotherPoster00 · 27/09/2019 16:20

metro.co.uk/2019/09/27/corbyn-gets-backing-caretaker-prime-minister-snp-10820300/

Caroline Lucas has said she'd back Corbyn so it really is the LibDems party of Revoke enabling a No Deal Brexit ffs

MrPan · 27/09/2019 16:21

I'd tread carefully there tobee in this spirit of non-offensiveness etc. Two of those three binaries are non-applicable.

MrPan · 27/09/2019 16:22

As part of my super-plan to bring the country together I've hired a really big field in Northumbria.

RedToothBrush · 27/09/2019 16:22

Raphael Hogarth @ raphael_hogarth
As far as I can make out, we have now heard of 5 suggested routes around the Benn Act, the legislation which would compel the PM to seek a delay of Brexit until next year if Parliament had not approved a deal or no deal by 19 October. All, I think, are dead ends.

Route 1 (ht @owenjbennett): send letter requesting extension as required, but also an "explainer" which says that he doesn't really want one. Dead end because unlawful: the Act says he must "seek to obtain" an extension, and he wouldn't be doing so.
www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/08/boris-johnson-draws-plan-legally-stop-brexit-extension-mps-vote/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Boris Johnson draws up plan to legally stop Brexit extension if MPs vote against general election

Route 2 (ht @JolyonMaugham): Get MPs to vote for a deal - so the duty to seek an extension falls away - but don't get them to vote for legislation to implement the deal. Under the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018, that means HMG can't ratify. Hence no deal.
waitingfortax.com/2019/09/15/the-flaw-in-the-benn-act/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
The flaw in the Benn Act

Dead end, I think, because (a) there isn't a majority for a deal in the first place, and (b) would require the PM to whip MPs into an extraordinary double-think, saying "vote for the deal to get no deal", and (c) Parliament, now it's sitting, could legislate again to prevent this

Route 3 (ht John Major): simply try to use an "Order of Council" (or possibly Order in Council), a type of secondary legislation not requiring parliamentary approval, to suspend the Benn Act. A dead end because patently unlawful. See the Bill of Rights:

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
OP posts:
ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 27/09/2019 16:25

I think Corbyn is one of those people who feels it is his duty to side with the oppressed underdog. Except that his criteria for assessing who is the underdog in a situation are simplistic and blinkered. I dislike the man but I am prepared to accept his motives are genuine even if his judgement is questionable.

Still wouldn’t vote for him...

MockersthefeMANist · 27/09/2019 16:27

Possibly all this talk of riots is aimed at encouraging a situation where a State of Emergency can be justified.

Reichstag Fire, anyone?

tobee · 27/09/2019 16:28

Thanks MrPan. Care to clarify please? PM if it's less incendiary?

prettybird · 27/09/2019 16:28

My dad was saying that his albeit all retired medical colleagues were saying at lunch yesterday (their regular Thursday meet up) that they thought that Corbyn was a very sick man. Something to do with the appearance of his eyes. Confused

He's going to watch news items of him more carefully - but he was a radiologist so not very good at looking at the surface of people Wink

They're all Remain voting Conservatives who are bemused at him now SNP (and previous to that LibDem and previous to that, for 35 years, Labour Shock) Grin

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 27/09/2019 16:31

I think that the unlawful prorogation has taken away the CCA route. In simple terms absolutely nobody would take at fact value any suggestion that there was a credible emergency.

With Cummings and the like trying to stir up trouble publicly it would all look far too convenient.

DGRossetti · 27/09/2019 16:32

Boris Johnson should not pick a fight with the courts to burnish his Brexit credentials

Well unless I am missing something, unless and until parliament change the law, SCOTUK can't be overruled. Unless Johnson plans on sending Cummings around like a low rent wiseguy to inform their lordships that the only way to make him go away is to do what he says ?

I'm wondering if the fact Cummings is now front-page material is particularly welcome to him ?

And on that note, for no apparent reason, whatever happened to Peter Mandelson ?

MrPan · 27/09/2019 16:32

tobee - I wouldn't PM - the self ID thing I'd go with - the other two certainly not. ESP UVF ( which is the more offensive bit) but we can differ, n'est-ce pas?

DGRossetti · 27/09/2019 16:34

Do memes matter ?

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?
Mistigri · 27/09/2019 16:35

*One of the things about a Corbyn led government is it is extremely unlikely to be Labour only.

Thus he would have to compromise with other parties.*

This. Plus his age. The fight over his succession has started (the conference attack on Watson) and the Corbyn hardliners lost round 1.

Only way that Labour gets a majority at the next GE is with a more centrist less divisive figure.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 27/09/2019 16:35

And on that note, for no apparent reason, whatever happened to Peter Mandelson?

He who shall never be named, im sure the sky went dark for a second there

ClashCityRocker · 27/09/2019 16:35

Mockers interesting you should say that. Dh and I were catching up on Rise of the Nazis yesterday and even my politically apathetic 'they're all as bad as each other' Dh noticed the similarities between then and now. It woke him up a bit - something I've been failing to do for the last three years.

In the interest of semantics, I am not saying Boris Johnson is a Nazi. But that the methods being deployed are in many ways similar.

Mistigri · 27/09/2019 16:36

I have to say that Mandelson seems like rather a tame figure by 2019 standards Shock

JustAnotherPoster00 · 27/09/2019 16:36

Only way that Labour gets a majority at the next GE is with a more centrist less divisive figure.

Who will suffer the exact same onslaught as Corbyn has received

tobee · 27/09/2019 16:39

Thanks MrPan. Just wondering how I'd mucked up my googling! Of course we can differ!

MockersthefeMANist · 27/09/2019 16:39

O'Neill's demented outburst this afternoon was probably just the random rantings of a thirsty carpet-chewer, but the alternative possibility cannot be ruled out that it was an outlyer for a growing chorus of calls from the Express, Telegraph and dear old Currant Bun calling for the people to take to the streets to save Brexit from the Remain-voting judges, etc.

tobee · 27/09/2019 16:43

Who else sees Mandelson's name invoked and immediately thinks of guacamole/mushy peas?Grin

Also skulking around at the back of the congregation with Rev Tony Blair on Harry Enfield ?

Grin
Ellie56 · 27/09/2019 16:45

Saw this on FB today:

"Serious question: ( Yes I know not everybody agrees
with this just putting it out there)"

Tell me what you want so badly that you believe gives you the right to risk people’s life saving medicines.

To risk food supplies, and price increases when we already have four million children in poverty and many more relying on food banks.

To break the Good Friday agreement and allow terrorists to take hold again in Northern Ireland. To force ordinary people there, who did not vote for Brexit, to live in fear and to add huge difficulties to their every day lives and businesses by installing a border.

To force huge stress and disruption on our friends and family who are mainland European citizens in the UK, (and who were not allowed a vote on Brexit), and UK citizens in mainland Europe. To cause some of them to have to leave their homes of many years, break up businesses, relationships, friendships. Break up families.

To force the people of Scotland, who did not vote for Brexit, to lose their opportunities, face shortages and poverty too. (And then tell them their voice doesn’t even matter!)

To force the people of Gibraltar, who voted 99% to stay, to literally put a hard border at the end of the road they go down ten times a day.

To force young people, who voted 73% to stay, and actually every age group under 50 in 2016, who all had a majority to stay, to lose huge opportunities for their future, freedoms and rights against their will.

To absolutely destroy the Welsh economy.

To destroy farming, manufacturing, small businesses and many, many jobs.

To deprive the NHS and social care systems not only of cash but of the doctors, nurses and care workers they desperately need.

To take away our right to live, work, study and retire, to have free healthcare, and travel freely, in 27 countries.

To kill off our children’s life chances and leave our old people without the care and medicine they need.

To waste billions of pounds of tax payer’s money on ‘preparation’, on ‘unelected bureaucracy’ of having to employ many more civil servants and expensive consultants in Whitehall. Of having to replace all the many shared agencies we have been part of for up to 50 years.

To remove our shared data and intelligence services and increasing our vulnerability to terrorism and other crime.

To remove our hugely successful, collaboration in science, medical developments, climate change solutions, with our nearest neighbours.

To allow a hard right Tory government to sell off our NHS to Trump’s America, to remove our hard won employment rights, our consumer rights, our safety standards, just to line the pockets of rich men with no moral integrity.

To damage our economy by perhaps as much as 20% of GDP, losing us tax money for our hospitals, schools and local services. To de-value the currency, causing all those services, as well as individuals, to have to pay more for anything they import.

To throw away completely free trade with a market of 500 million people, plus nearly a hundred other preferential deals with the rest of the world, and replace them with tariffs on all our exports and imports, and huge customs queues.

To allow the tax-exile run tabloids to attack our democratic systems, our judiciary, our institutions, with language reminiscent of 1930s Germany.

To allow the far right and Nazism to crawl out from under its stone and for hate crime, abuse and attacks to increase massively across all categories.

What do you actually want that’s worth all that, not only for you but for so many others who haven’t chosen it?

Brexit allows two things - not having to follow new EU law which clamps down on tax dodgers, and the de-regulation of Britain.That’s the removal of all our rights and standards.

That’s why some very rich and unprincipled people want it so much.

Why do you?"

Don't tell me - leave means leave and we're taking back control... Hmm

Mistigri · 27/09/2019 16:46

Who will suffer the exact same onslaught as Corbyn has received

I think they'd get the Miliband treatment rather than the Corbyn treatment.

It's never going to be easy for any Labour leader while so much of U.K. mainstream media is owned by tax dodgers and foreign interests. But it'd be much harder to scare the public with reds-under-the-bed nonsense with a leader who had (for example) served as head of the crown prosecution service.