Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

On October 19th there will be a “People’s Vote” March in London, so basically Pro-Remain, and I expect not long after that we’ll have another “Leave Mean Leave” type one. Someone mentioned "Stop the Coup" earlier.

I know a few people who have been on campaigns for a PV and on marchs who are what you would call pro remain. Including myself.

I did a street stall for PV quite a while back. I personally have never been in favour of another referendum, but I saw a political purpose in supporting the campaign at that time. That might sound utterly crazy but my point was campaigning was about applying political pressure to get more of a compromise and to try and open up conversations about different types of exit rather than have this very singluar hard approach which at the time May was very hell bent at (but subsequently did back track on when she realised that we are actually limited in our options on a practical level because of the Irish border question). I was freely admitted that I wasn't fully wedded to the idea of actually having another referendum and I wasn't the only person who was campaigning that day, who held this view by any means.

It was actually a useful exercise and I found it really good to talk to some hardline leavers. I remember one conversation where a guy came over and there was a lot of finger pointing and aggression (on both sides) in disagreement, but as the group of us talked it was really interesting what happened. We actually agreed on more things than we disagreed on politically, and after a conversation of more than half an hour we all were really respecting of the others position and shock hands at the end and felt very pleased to have had that conversation. We still disagreed but we also had gained something from the conversation.

Now, amongst some of my friends who have been hard remain and have organised events which have included Lord Adonis speaking, there is a range of views. On a personal level they still want to remain and campaign for it, but they certainly would take a deal if the alternative was no deal and would be reasonably satisfied with a soft exit at this stage as a reasonable compromise.

I suspect that many who are going to marches which are either pro PV or straight out pro remain are not necessarily as hard line as you think and if you chatted to them, you'd find a whole range of positions. Yes there would be hard line remainers and even straight out pro european federalists there too, but I think the protests are perhaps more of a broad church than the media would have us believe.

Like there is a huge range of Leave views there is also a huge range of Remain views. This binary labelling is certainly not reflective of where public opinion really sits.

This term of 'Middler' is one that has cropped up previously, and I do think its one that should be used more often. There is a cross over of softer more compromising views which isn't being represented in the media but certainly is out there in both the traditional Remain and Leave camps. Its where I sit at this point, though my heart would love to remain.

My priority isn't the EU at this point though. My priority is to protect the country as much as possible from extremism and the threat to democracy itself. A middle approach is what I see as the best way to achieve that. Ideologically I am strongly pro-EU, but in pragmatic terms I don't think that is either realistic nor wise. DH is more hard line than me - he's technically a political federalist with objections to the Euro - but even he thinks leaving has to happen now.

Certainly, in the circles I'm in I don't think I've heard a single hard line remainer have a problem with those who have softened in their views and they are reasonably sympathetic as to why people have done so.

A March for a Deal?

What political purpose does it serve? How many different options for a deal are there? Who does that benefit in terms of political parties? - How does it further any party's political bargining position at this stage? Thats the problem. No one really is supporting this position with a clear manifesto of what a deal should look like, because they are either trying to be deliberately vague for their own wider political benefit or have already gone full on to the extremes.

Thats not really reflective of public opinion imho.

Most of the polls are saying the public want a resolution on the 31st Oct rather than an extension, because everyone is fed up with the whole damn thing. That is reflective of just about every view point though - revokers, dealers and no dealers.

Ultimately, thats the thing for me, I do think the vast majority who want Brexit 'over and done with' by 31st October, would just take a deal at this stage regardless of their Leave / Remain status.

Its only those at the edges who would be dissatified with this, and they certainly would be a minority.

The trouble is, resolving Brexit, isn't the priority for political parties. Their priority is the next general election and who then gets the spoils of that victory in how they reshape the country.

We actually agreed on more things than we disagreed on politically, and after a conversation of more than half an hour we all were really respecting of the others position and shock hands at the end and felt very pleased to have had that conversation.

Because a lot of Leave is nothing to do with the EU. It's about successive shitty governments who have repeatedly shat on their own citizens in order to maintain their own comfy lifestyles. I can personally guarantee that at least one person voted leave because they were pissed of about their planning application being refused. And another person voted leave because someone from France once served them an undercooked brioche. When you have 17 million individual cases, there isn't much you can't dream up and ascribe to at least one voter without being correct.

Remember some people voted leave because they felt the EU was hiding evidence of UFOs.

www.express.co.uk/news/science/825324/EU-law-blocks-Britons-truth-UFO-sightings-UK-skies-civil-aviation-authority

Yes, I know. But we all know what Forrest Gumps DM said ....

Like there is a huge range of Leave views there is also a huge range of Remain views. This binary labelling is certainly not reflective of where public opinion really sits.

I don't disagree with this, but I think that the problem when talking about marches is that only highly motivated people march.

I see little evidence of any highly-motivated pro-deal group of leavers. Most people who are still "active" leavers are almost by default OK with no deal, and the vast majority actively want no deal. Ergo, they are not going to spend large amounts of money and time marching for something that they do not believe is significantly superior to no deal.

On the remain side, not only is there a much wider range of opinions, but almost all of those people are highly motivated to prevent no-deal.

Therefore, any public movement in favour of a deal would be almost exclusively supported and promoted by remainers, and would be viewed by the majority of leavers as a betrayal of their vote. It would be a remainers deal - negotiated by a remainer and mostly supported by remainers.

I am not sure how you get around this problem tbh.

Because a lot of Leave is nothing to do with the EU. It's about successive shitty governments who have repeatedly shat on their own citizens in order to maintain their own comfy lifestyles. I can personally guarantee that at least one person voted leave because they were pissed of about their planning application being refused. And another person voted leave because someone from France once served them an undercooked brioche. When you have 17 million individual cases, there isn't much you can't dream up and ascribe to at least one voter without being correct.

Yep. It was exactly this. Which is incredibly frustrating.

Leave is seen as a solution to a whole bunch of political problems which are totally unrelated.

Its also why you'll never persuade a group of Leavers differently.

Brendan O'Neill on the Daily Politics BBC2 has just called for riots.

When pressed, he added that he did not wish these riots to be violent, but he cited the Gilets Jaunes as his inspiration.

Ot but I’ve started reading the book by Eve Temerkulan, seven steps to lose democracy. It’s 99p on the kindle but it’s worth 700 and should be given to any young person you know. I’m only 20% in and I’ve highlighted 30 passages (and I’m not a highlighter type of reader!)

@Louise I don't think Cummings wants a deal where he is confronted with a direct question about a deal and doesn't mention a deal in response, just that we will leave.

(Ece, not eve. That’s my phone not recognising Turkish names!)

Isn't a non-violent riot a tupperware party ?

It's when you watch/hear language being debased like this you realise it's gone too far.

Pussy Riot ?

Ahem.

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/social-affairs/politics/news/61024/john-mcdonnell-called-‘insurrection’-‘bring-down’

Newly appointed Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has previously called for “insurrection” to bring down the Government, the Daily Telegraph reports.

The Shadow Chancellor reportedly called for “insurrection” to being down the Government at least three times between 2010 and 2012.

During a conference in Liverpool in 2012, Mr McDonnell said: “Don’t expect …change [to society] coming from Parliament…we have an elected dictatorship, so I think we have a democratic right to use whatever means to bring this government down. The real fight now is in our communities, it’s on the picket lines, it’s in the streets.”

In a speech in 2011 to a Right-to-Protest rally, he praised rioters who had “kicked the s*” out of the Conservative party’s headquarter in Westminster.

Looks like the Labour leadership team know a thing or two about violent and anti-democratic language, no?

Ahem?

And what do two wrongs make?

Brendan O'Neill of Spiked

He used to be a Marxist, but is one of those who have stwitched seemlessly over from far left to far right,
keeping the violent language

I really would be interested in an analysis of why so many on the far left have done likewise, because there isn't a corresponding flow from far right to far left

All I can think of is loyalty to Russia, that we have seen carries over from loyalty to the USSR
Also makes me wonder how many of the Russia fans in Labour are now in reality far right moles

And what do two wrongs make?

They make a “don’t be a hypocrite when your own side has said worse”!

During a conference in Liverpool in 2012

Anything more recent?

Fuck me they theyre having to dig now

In what way am I a hypocrite if I condemn calls for violence, even non-violent violence, from whatever source as equally wrong?

Once again I think that Cummings threat of riots is yet more double speak designed to have three effects

Firstly there are the slavering skinhead Robinson bully boys who really would like their insecurities soothed by seeing themselves and their behaviour legitimised by a cause. They may be small in number but their regular bad behaviour in parliament square and around the country raises the temperature. Robinson has come out behind Bozo - wouldn’t be at all surprised if there have been personal contacts or informal links between Cummings and Robinson.

Second we have all the people signed up to the wartime spirit of Brexit, of course they won’t leave their sofas but they will like the fighting talk

Thirdly there is the response of parliaments itself which will also play to the second audience that these are secret EU cheese eating surrender monkeys living in fear of the first audience.

Of course as I say above if things get yet more febrile perhaps the first audience could be a useful tool for Cunning Cummings cunning plan which surely is heading in the direction of a dictator.

All I can think of is loyalty to Russia

Ive always imagined it would be from the authoritarian angle they would align and on to that the narrative of victimisation 'youre life is like this because of x people'

Anything more recent?

Would you be asking that if Boris had made the same comments in 2012, or are you a hypocrite? Like I said, the left doesn’t give a damn if its leaders call for violent insurrection, so you’ll forgive us if we don’t get overly excited when you suddenly take exception to that kind of language only when it’s politically convenient.

Cendrillon

what about all the awful things that BJ has said or allowed to be published when an editor?

The Scotch – what a verminous race!"; "It’s time Hadrian’s Wall was refortified, to pen them in a ghetto on the other side"; "The nation deserves not merely isolation, but comprehensive extermination".

When the now prime minister of the UK has allowed that to be printed about me - well I am scared.

I am hoping we aren't hearing anything from the party leaders in Westminster is because they are talking to each other.....Sturgeon and Blackford have broken cover, on SM, perhaps to tilt toward Swinson...

So the Tories are copying McDonnell, who will soon be copying them again

• in fact we can pretty much guarantee this now if BJ wins the GE

The Tories won't be convincing then if they complain,
with the PM & ministers having said MPs have to vote for Brexit if they don't want riots and death threats

The Conservatives always claimed to be well, Conservative and
to be the party of Law and Order

Now the PM and ministers are copying what a Labour MP said in his wild far left backbench days
and saying they want to tear down British institutions

Not very Conservatiive, is it ?

Cendrillion Id engage with you if you ever had a point to make but all it ever is off you is LOOK AT WHAT LABOUR DID!!!!!!! THE REDS ARE UNDER YOUR BED!!!!!

No one on this thread would be so easily influenced or swayed by your Tory/BXP party line nonsense, we tend to, some of those here more way able to than myself, use our critical thinking skills, feel free to hop over into the Brexit Arms you'll get a beautifully warm welcome there