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Brexit

Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

965 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 08:16

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

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Emilyontmoor · 26/09/2019 18:03

Pigeon Sorry you are right, my mix up! Complete racist hard hat

NotaRealLawyer · 26/09/2019 18:04

We are living in a parallel universe gone to fuck. Somewhere out there, there's a happy and peaceful world where David Miliband is heading for a third term, Putin and Assad are sharing a cell at the Hague, and Trump is on "I'm A Celebrity.." locked in a coffin full of cockroaches for the fifth week running by popular demand

Feeling very " I had a dream" on reading this.

Spent the morning in gone to fuck land, in a shitty, tatty, dirty, stain-carpeted, run down room, with several obviously very unwell people being "assessed" on their life limiting neurological illnesses.

The "assessor" was a sports physio. I doubt anyone there could have managed a game of tiddlywinks, let alone risen to achieving a sports injury. Hellish. Kept thinking of Parliament last night and what "Great" Britain has been reduced to.

ListeningQuietly · 26/09/2019 18:06

Leveson is irrelevant.
We need the Standards board back
www.gov.uk/government/organisations/the-committee-on-standards-in-public-life
and
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standards_Board_for_England

Eric Pickles abolished it
we need it back

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 18:07

"Imnotthrowingawaymyshot"

We've repeatedly condemned McDonnell here

(there must be far fewer Labour mps who said that sort of thing than I expected, if that's the only one Guido & Breitbart could dig up for you all)

Do you remember last December when Tory Brexiter MPs were circulating that picture of May hanging by a noose ?

wheresmymojo · 26/09/2019 18:14

Has someone updated re: Jess Phillips office being attacked this afternoon?

wheresmymojo · 26/09/2019 18:15

Sorry, just noticed it was mentioned a couple of hours ago..

wheresmymojo · 26/09/2019 18:16

Tim Farron:

Just been called a traitor and shouted at by 3 blokes standing outside Parliament. I was polite and gracious in reply, it doesn’t bother me because I know it’s not true. But, it’s not ok is it? This is not about Brexit now, it’s about whether or not we’re decent country...

TheElementsSong · 26/09/2019 18:16

Has someone updated re: Jess Phillips office being attacked this afternoon?

Yes, but always remember “both sides are as bad” mm’kay?

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 18:22

Both sides are as bad .... Hmm

because a Labour PM has in the past stood up in Parliament and mocked women MPs who said they had been threatened

because a Labour PM in the HoC mocked an MP who said her elderly mother had been threatened

because a Labour PM in the HoC mocked an MP who said her child had been threatened

wheresmymojo · 26/09/2019 18:22

Paul Waugh from HuffPost:

.@KarlTurnerMP tells me when he complained to Dominic Cummings about an overnight death threat, the PM's adviser replied that he should 'vote for a Brexit deal then'

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 18:23

Aha, so BJ got that line from Cummings:

"Vote for Brexit or the death threats continue"

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 26/09/2019 18:24

BCF

and they should stop expecting the EU or the ECJ to keep saving the UK's arse when its own MPs won't

I wholeheartedly agree with this.
The whole Brexit circus from the Referendum campaign onwards has highlighted the toxic nature of British politics. The poor campaigning, the lack of understanding on how referenda work, the difference between direct and representative democracy. The total failure of Parliament to come up with any form of constructive approach: the total failure of Government to come up with any form of constructive approach.
A private citizen has successfully taken the Government to court twice over its behaviour and yet its the Judges who are enemies of the people.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 18:28

'Despairing' EU officials braced for showdown with Boris Johnson after combative Commons performance

If BJ's performance was intended to repel the EU ... it may be working

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/26/despairing-eu-officials-braced-showdown-boris-johnson-combative/amp/?

EU officials and diplomats said they had been left "in despair" by Mr Johnson’s approach to Parliament
which appeared to dash any hopes that he intended to find enough Labour MPs to vote for a last-minute Brexit deal.

“Last night was a new low,” said a senior EU official.
“The obvious conclusion is that the PM has no intention of cultivating MPs – whether from his own benches or from the opposition.

A second added, “The [non-paper] papers are so ill thought through and unconnected they are not even an attempt at being a real solution.”

Third, a despairing – or rather a weary assumption – that Mr Trumpson [sic] will continue this grandstanding and outrage-stoking right up to and including the European Council on October 17.

Fourth…was the feeling that UK is really about to go the full Trump.
A new politics based on unilateralism – and what that means for EU-UK in the long run.

More broadly, as British diplomats pull out of EU meetings on the orders of Mr. Johnson and the Foreign Secretary,
EU diplomats said that the spectre of a fully uncooperative UK outside the EU was now being considered.

When will they turn on us after they have eaten all the children of this revolution?

What if they start actively sabotaging our decision-making? Do we want them in or out at that stage?”

an EU diplomat asked.
“We’re getting increasingly concerned about the stability of the system itself.”

unwravellingagain · 26/09/2019 18:31

Jolyon Maugham has tweeted about the CCA:

Suggestions from well placed sources that the Government intends to try and suspend the Benn Act using Part II of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004. I've had a look at the point, as has a leading public law junior. We both think it's hopeless.

If we perceive that the Government plans to continue down this plainly unlawful route, we will issue advice from a public law QC that it is clearly unlawful. It will then be for the Prime Minister to decide whether he wants to lie to the Queen.

I have sent The Good Law project some more money. And the Jo Cox Foundation,

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 18:31

Jo Maugham QC @jolyonmaugham
Suggestions from well placed sources that the Government intends to try and suspend the Benn Act using Part II of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004. I've had a look at the point, as has a leading public law junior. We both think it's hopeless.

If we perceive that the Government plans to continue down this plainly unlawful route, we will issue advice from a public law QC that it is clearly unlawful. It will then be for the Prime Minister to decide whether he wants to lie to the Queen.

We also have proceedings afoot in Scotland that we believe will bind the Prime Minister's hands under, if necessary, pain of imprisonment to comply with the obligations placed on him by Parliament. We do not live in a dictatorship. No one is above the law.

Words.
Failing.

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RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 18:33

Donald Tusk @eucopresident
The idea of a conflict between patriotism and globalism is false and dangerous. 21st century patriotism must have a global dimension, if it is not to become national egoism. The love of one’s homeland cannot become hatred towards one's neighbours. #UNGA

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BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 18:33

Oh Gawd
Fire
Petrol

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 18:34

ffs, the HoC must step up and replace him
Absolutely shameful that they can't agree on a replacement when this is the prospect we are facing

RedToothBrush · 26/09/2019 18:38

Re Maugham thread

Dominic Casciani @bbcdomc
Wouldn't the government be required to define and declare "an emergency" that threatens serious damage to human welfare?

Jo Maugham QC @jolyonmaugham
I understand your question, but I think it predicates a Government that cares whether there is a proper legal basis for its actions. I don't believe this can be said to be such a Government.

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BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 18:38

I hate to say this, but BJ in jail for a few weeks - "resisting the elite conspiracy" could give him a landslide GE victory

Maybe even just 3-4 days, after which No Deal would have happened and then he couldn't be kept in jail until he complies .... because extension would then be legally impossible

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 26/09/2019 18:38

I think BJ and Co are getting desperate. Everyone has crawled all over the CCA already and nobody has found a way that they could use it.

Alsohuman · 26/09/2019 18:39

Maybe a caretaker PM has been lined up and he’s being given enough rope to hang himself.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/09/2019 18:40

It depends whether BJ would accept a few days in jail in return for a landslide GE win

Cummings would egg him on

mrslaughan · 26/09/2019 18:41

@wheresmymojo

Paul Waugh from HuffPost:

.@KarlTurnerMP tells me when he complained to Dominic Cummings about an overnight death threat, the PM's adviser replied that he should 'vote for a Brexit deal then'

As if we needed affirmation it was part of the plan....... it gives little pleasure to know we're right. The depths this country we have sunk too that we have someone holding the reins of power, who quite happily will use threats of violence to get their own way....

CendrillonSings · 26/09/2019 18:41

We also have proceedings afoot in Scotland that we believe will bind the Prime Minister's hands under, if necessary, pain of imprisonment to comply with the obligations placed on him by Parliament. We do not live in a dictatorship. No one is above the law.

The silly fellow doesn’t know that Boris probably says a little prayer every night for the Scottish “nobile officium” case to succeed... it would be the most colossal political gift.