Westminstenders: What hangs in the balance?

[RedToothBrush]

Yellow Hammer (and Black Swan if it exists) and other documents the government itself has produced are our truths and our evidence.

I look to Thomas Jefferson quotes in trying to defend liberal democracy.

His most famous of quotes is

Thomas Jefferson was the principal author of the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration states, “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness….”

Self evident truths. These are the bedrock of democracy.

There are many more quotes from Jefferson which talk about the shining beacon of truth and the threats to liberty from falsehoods and those who tell them.

He argued that when the power of the state is used to avoid scrutiny we should be worried and afraid. As a leader he should never be afraid of the truth, because the truth always exists and you can only merely hide it before it makes itself apparent anyway.

“The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government.”

Today I feel the need to dust off old Jefferson for my own sanity and to remind myself of what matters. Jefferson helps me focus on dangers and how you fight back. It always comes back to exposure to the truth - how do you work to expose this (and the role of journalism in this)

Seek the truth. Talk the truth. Even if that means being self critical and humble in admitting your mistakes and errors.

It is not your identity as Leaver, Remainer, Tory, Labour, LDer, SNPer, woman, man, English, Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh or European right now.

These identities are harming us, by making us look at the wrong thing rather than see the real danger facing us. They divide us whilst they conquer us.

What you should be focusing on NOW is your commitment to democracy in the face of someone in power actively and explicity saying the rule of law does not matter and the courts are wrong. That is advocating mob rule.

Johnson stood and said threats to MPs were humbug. And refused to moderate his language despite so many (mainly female) MPs saying the threats they received were extremely serious (remembering we've even had a prosecution for a plot to kill Rosie Cooper as well as other successful prosecutions for threats to MPs)

This is where we are at.

Focus on it.

No Deal Brexit and the future of liberal democracy in this country are indivisible and inseparable. They are entwined by the rule of law.

Brexit is NOT in of itself a threat to liberal democracy. It is HOW we leave that is.

I wish this was being said and emphasised concisely and cleanly.

red I also fear 3) and I have no idea where that could end

What could stop him going for 3) is those unhappy Tory MPs telling him that's going too far ++
Or him chickening out - he's a coward, imo
and would fear the personal consequences if he thought there was any risk he might actually face penalties, like jail, for contempt.

I fear 3) but have hope for 1) or 2)

++ btw, do you know if that 12-month rule on Tories not being able to NC their leader applies only after a previous VoNC on him ?

afaik, Tory MPs could NC him and appoint an interim leader to requêst an extension while they sort themselves out
If they regain their sense of responsibilty
And find their ovaries & balls

Thanks for explanations re trump and putin ! No doubting or condoning it. Just wondered why.

And what's the compensating control if the LibDems say "fuck you" first ? I can imagine such a possibility not even bothering Boris hair, let alone what passes for a brain, but surely someone at Mount Doom Tory HQ might consider it ?

Even if he fails to get a majority, Boris would almost certainly lead the largest party. If the numbers are similar to 2010, it would be the logical choice. If not, Boris governs in the minority for 5 years or we have yet another election.

Chaz The point is what happens if he ignores the injunction and blusters it out

I hope they'd continue to apply the law and jail him for contempt < gulp >
but I'm not sure how quickly

BUT
he would still be PM
and legally, noone else can request an extension

I see politics as an almost closed circle. The left and right extremes are closer too each other than the centre

I've though that since I did history and Italy, Germany, China and Russia in the 20th century.

At the heart of it, is the relationship between the state and the individual. And in both fascism and communism, the individual is most definitely subservient to the state. You don't need to infer this, Goebbels (admittedly in translation) is crystal clear about this. So you, I, Cendrillon, BCF, RTB as individuals are totally expendable, worthless, and controlled by the state. Stalin also said pretty much the same (in Russian).

It's only when you move to the centre that the individual - and their needs - becomes superior to the state.

For those who haven't read Goebbels - even in Wiki form - it's well worth a few minutes. Then think about recent - and not so recent - narratives that fit his "how to seize power" checklist.

Given the nature of this site, here's a starter for ten - but it's not Goebbels ...

“The state must declare the child to be the most precious treasure of the people. As long as the government is perceived as working for the benefit of the children, the people will happily endure almost any curtailment of liberty and almost any deprivation.”

Especially relevant in todays age of anti vaccine experts.

BCF They changed the rules, I read somewhere, but can't find it again just now, that, a newly selected Conservative leader is immune from challenge for 1 year, same as if they survived a confidence vote.

We’re not going to crash out at the end of October. As Chaz says, it’s easy to amend the Benn Bill so that someone else can request the extension. Super helpful for Boris too!

I don't think I've seen anyone post this yet. Heartbreaking Twitter thread from Ellie Cooper, daughter of Yvette Cooper. Never forget that there are families involved in this, who did not choose this for themselves.

I rarely actually tweet, especially about politics - am more of the silent retweeter - but after the chilling scenes in Parliament last night I just don’t think I can stay quiet anymore. There’s a group of young people and children that need to be spoken for. (A thread.)

The language used by our Prime Minister - not a far-right populist or provocative journalist, but our Prime Minister - is just beyond words. The fact that the head of our government is actually using language that helps incite violence toward MPs is so beyond dangerous I can’t
even comprehend it in a modern society. This isn’t funny any more. Whatever egotistical game Boris Johnson has been playing since he was at Eton, this isn’t entitled teenagers standing blindly by their positions in an attempt to one-up their friends anymore.

This of rising hatred is costing people their lives.
I was 17 when Jo Cox was murdered. I just rang my mum, who is Yvette Cooper, on my way home from school to complain about the usual things and I distinctly remember her interrupting me to say “An MP’s been shot.”

I can honestly say my perspective of the world completely changed that day. Before then, my mum’s job was something that kept her working later then bedtime when I was a kid, the source of embarrassing conversations at school, the reason we travelled to and fro between Yorkshire and London every week for the first two thirds of my life.

It was never something that could get her killed.
I am scared.
I am scared when I scroll through the replies to her tweets calling her a liar and a traitor.
I am scared when our house gets fitted with panic buttons, industrial-locking doors and explosive bags to catch the mail.
I am scared because on the 16th of June 2016, two children said goodbye to their mother before she left for her constituency to sit in surgeries and help people all day, and never saw her again. I am scared every single day that the same will happen to mine.

Because she is trying her best to help people. To make their lives better. Even if we disagree with our politicians, when was this something we actively wanted to hurt them for?
Of course Brexit is contentious. Of course people have strong opinions, opinions that will inevitably come into conflict when trying to work out how best to deliver an outcome that split our country in two. But what we need now is a Prime Minister who can stand up and
say “Yes I want to deliver Brexit, but regardless of my position, this inflammatory and aggressive language needs to stop. We need to treat each other with humanity and respect.” Boris Johnson, take a stand. It’s your job to unite the country.
Or you will be responsible for putting other people’s lives at risk.

Surely you can raise your head out of the sand enough to see that much?
This whole thing has gone too far. When people start getting hurt is the moment that we should step back and ask if any of this is even worth it. All the anger and the screaming and the taking sides. The traitors and the liars and the surrendering.
Why has this become a matter of life and death? Does someone have to die for us all to realise that we have gotten in far too deep and far too aggressively?
The thing is, someone already has died. Do we not have the decency and compassion to see that? Can we not all just treat each other like people again?
Because I’m terrified if we don’t that something awful is going to happen again. At this rate, that seems like the only thing that could stop us in our tracks. We need to change the way we act towards our MPs before it goes too far because if not I have no doubt it will.

Re Jess Phillips office:- and so it continues

I believe there is a clear national consensus growing for a GNU, minus the ERG and Momentum. A grand coalition of sensible Labour, Libs and sensible Conservatives would comfortably make a majority, with the SNP as the official opposition.

There is backstairs muttering about Dame Margaret Beckett, the Queen Mother of the Labour Party and a personal friend of the Queen, emerging as a consensus candidate.

Being the largest party isn't enough to get his policies through

EIther BJ or Corbyn would need Confidence & Supply from 1 or more other parties
Those other parties would set conditions

e.g. if BJ wins, maybe Parliament would accept Brexit happens, but pass the WA - which rules out No Deal - and require the govt negotiates a soft Brexit, as a compromise

He'd have to publish his position papers, just like the EU did and previously agree them with the other parties
and have to have someone like Starmer in the negotiating team

Even if he fails to get a majority, Boris would almost certainly lead the largest party. If the numbers are similar to 2010, it would be the logical choice. If not, Boris governs in the minority for 5 years or we have yet another election

There's all sorts of fascinating pop psychology about Boris leading a minority government ... I really can't see him accepting that as his lot in life. This is a man who was destined to rule. A man who was born is to do great things (note the moral ambiguity there). A man whose name, should the course of human history last another thousand years, will be spoken in awe and wonder.

That's the man we're dealing with. Not just any old johnny-come-lately mere politician. But a leader - a living God.

BCF
I think they would amend the Benn Act. Parliament would give someone else the authority to make the request on behalf of Parliament.

It would be difficult for anyone to object if it was being done because the PM had broken the law, was in contempt of court and possibly in contempt of Parliament too.

@DGRossetti - it's not really all that surprising, I suppose. There's a drift of educated people towards urban areas, as that's where the jobs and other educated people are, and there's a correlation between intelligence and educational attainment.

A grand coalition of sensible Labour

Can you define 'sensible' please?

e.g. if BJ wins, maybe Parliament would accept Brexit happens, but pass the WA - which rules out No Deal - and require the govt negotiates a soft Brexit, as a compromise

Not the worst outcome from this shitstorm. I imagine most people would accept it at that point, from sheer exhaustion.

I think they would amend the Benn Act. Parliament would give someone else the authority to make the request on behalf of Parliament.

I don't think that's possible - I think the EU will only talk to the executive. Happy to be corrected of course!

"it’s easy to amend the Benn Bill so that someone else can request the extension."

Legally, I'm sure only the PM can ask to extend - or Revoke ! -
because those are functions of the executive, not the legislature
and Parliament can't change that

The EU have said they would only accept an extension request from the PM, not from Parliament

• they understand the difference between executive and legislature

No court can replace BJ as PM, not within a few days, not before May 2022

Not just any old johnny-come-lately mere politician. But a leader - a living God.

Behold Bozza, the Poundship Caligula

(Rachel runs away very quickly)

If we don’t have a functioning executive because the PM has broken the laws I suspect the EU would give us a short extension to sort out the shitshow.

Sensible Labour: Cooper, Starmer, Benn, Miliband, V.Vaz, Malhotra, etc.

Cendrillon I could easily accept that compromise
My concern is with the attacks on the courts, on MPs, on Parliament
That has to stop

but tbh, I could never trust BJ again

I really hope someone sane like Tugenhadt replaces him asap and reaches out to all parties for a soft Brexit compromise
The EU would agree - they are as exhausted with this as we are - provided the WA is passed with backstop etc

If we don’t have a functioning executive because the PM has broken the laws I suspect the EU would give us a short extension to sort out the shitshow.

Why should they? Default is Brexit on 31st of Oct the Benn Bill doesnt change that, it just stops the PM taking us out on No Deal on purpose