The Brexit Arms

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Go BoJo!
Go BoJo!
Go BoJo!
Go BoJo!

So near & yet so far..............

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DustyDiamond we can get this if we accept the WA. If it is so easy to solve the NI border with technical solutions then we don't need the backstop anyway.

But the reality is, as we both know, that the WA has little hope of being passed in Parliament for the following reasons:

• ERG refusing to accept anything other than no deal

• Lib Dem refusing to accept anything other than no Brexit

• Labour refusing to accept anything that is 'tory'

I think Labour can be moved.

Or rather enough Labour MPs

Or rather enough Labour MPs

I said on a previous thread that I think BJ's original plan was to reheat the WA with some tweaks & bring it back (hence the need for prorog)

I'm not convinced that it would get through though - backstop is toxic to leavers & the price Labour want is the addition of putting it to a referendum & adding in CU.

We'll see though...
I do think it's coming back one last time

Belli - by what mechanism can the WA be put to Parliament again?

To me, its just another unicorn plan, with zero chance of ever happening, whatever the merits, much like my idea of a PV, then a GE... won't happen either.

I think Johnson wants to frighten the EU into a last minute concession and he has no real plan what to do if they do not.

I think Bernie could be persuaded that a different Leave date - 31 October - is significant enough a difference to put it up again.
We are all sick and tired of this bollocks which is why I think enough MPs would support it. Then we have a GE where the Brexit element of it is a position in trade negotiations and a way to avoid the backstop.
I agree it's got a unicorn smell about it as an idea but it is better than No Deal.

Bernie? Bercow

The backstop is toxic to headbangers in the ERG. Call it a safety net we don't even need to use if the tech solution is there.

Still can’t see a deal out there. Boris doesn’t appear to have come up with a solution to the Backstop which will pass the EU and MP’s.

"Surrender bill" is nasty inflammatory rhetoric because it feeds the narrative that parliament is against the people. The people have made a brave decision to take back control from the unelected foreign bureaucrat that is the EU. Parliament is not only against the Will Of The People but it is surrendering to the foreigners.

This is the language of divisive and manipulative propaganda. We are not at war with the EU. Our parliament is doing what it judges to be in the best interests of the country. Parliament is trying to juggle 2 things ; a democratic desire to honour the referendum result and a sense of duty to protect the country and constituents from harmful policy. Both of these are honourable and they are what our parliamentarians are bound to do in their role as our elected representatives in our parliamentary democracy.

And the reason that they are having to juggle the above is because the Tories abused the referendum process. They abused the referendum process because they proposed 2 options to the public but failed to define in any way what one of those options actually is. We all knew what remain is but not only did we not know what leave actually meant, but, in addition, that lack of definition of leave means that the goalposts of "what leave is" can shift. And they have.

At the time of the referendum the leave goalposts were "easiest deal in history / take back control / squillions for the NHS / making Britain great again" . Now, the goalposts are "we don't really know but probably food and medicine shortages / inflation / pound losing value / years of having to negotiate trade with the USA (and Europe) from a position of isolated weakness / significantly reduced GDP / damaging our constitutional values and checks and balances / endangering institutions that are vital to the separation of power and therefore democracy / shifting our main political parties out of the centre / endangering the GFA and peace in Ireland / endangering the union."

Mr Johnson's use of words like "surrender" is cynically reducing deeply complex and far reaching issues into black and white populism.

And he is trying to pit the public against their parliament. Which is dangerous territory.

That's just it @Parker231 . There is a deal that the EU will accept- the WA or an NI only backstop. We don't need the backstop if we can come up with something together in the transition period. But we don't get the transition period unless we WA.
This is the proverbial "it" and I think enough MPs would now back it because the alternative is too ghastly to contemplate.
Johnson gets his "I got Brexit ". Leavers get there "it was Boris what won it". And we get a transition period.

Re Tesco CEO. I don't know many people who eat lettuce with their Christmas dinner. In fact I rarely eat lettuce at all as it is so low in nutritional content for the price and effort of buying, preparing and eating it.

Landward had the other side of the story on Friday. Shellfish producers in Scotland have already worked out it is more profitable and reliable to fly everything to China than to bother with European markets. I do wonder if this is yet another example of the South East being a different World from the rest of the UK.

Howabout - I don’t eat lettuce for Christmas dinner but do eat It most days as a part of my lunch and would like to continue to do so.

@bellinisurge - problem is no one has come up with a legally viable solution to the backstop which will get the parties support.

And how do people feel about the

Let's 'de capitate Boris Johnson' from a lib dem?

Two fingers... Unfortunately Tony Blair seemed to favour 'foreign people' above his own back in 2006 so its not surprising if people view it like that.

Isn't this one of huge issues.. Who is our governments allegiance to? Who are they serving?

Mps are being investigated for colluding with eu over Benn bill.

by what mechanism can the WA be put to Parliament again? To me, its just another unicorn plan, with zero chance of ever happening, whatever the merits, much like my idea of a PV, then a GE... won't happen either.

I’ve been asking this for ages. Even if there is and alternative to no deal, I don’t understand how it will actually be able to happen

I think Johnson wants to frighten the EU into a last minute concession and he has no real plan what to do if they do not.

Judging by Barnier’s reply to Barclays letter a couple of pages ago - that’s not going to happen. The EU know they are more ready for no deal than we are.

"And how do people feel about the

Let's 'de capitate Boris Johnson' from a lib dem?"
Is fucking dreadful. Obviously.

problem is no one has come up with a legally viable solution to the backstop which will get the parties support

The problem really is that’s it’s not the backstop that’s the problem.

It’s an excuse because it’s tamgible.

We’d never need a backstop if we sorted ourselves out and found a technological border.

The issue really is that we still want the ‘cake and eat it’ option and the backstop is the excuse for not conceding the WA is the only actual viable option for leaving but it’s still shit.

I don’t see how the WA can be brought back and sold to the public when it’s been rejected three times. The idea of a slightly amended WA sounds like wishful thinking.

All roads lead to no deal. Barring a last minute derailment.

Mps are being investigated for colluding with eu over Benn bill.

Are you sure about that Imnotthrowingawaymyshot?

Isn't that what those who are pushing no deal would like to be happening? The reality being rather more nuanced - MPs such as Keir Starmer have been very open on national television about the fact that they checked with the EU that they would be open to the possibility of an extension before putting the Benn bill to parliament. Which seems perfectly legitimate and indeed responsible to me. It's hardly "colluding" with the EU. "Colluding" is a very loaded word in the same way that "surrender" is.

parliament is against the people. The people have made a brave decision to take back control from the unelected foreign bureaucrat that is the EU. Parliament is not only against the Will Of The People but it is surrendering to the foreigners

This is what’s happening though.

But I’d never use the word ‘foreigners’ - we’re surrendering to capitalist club full of people feathering their own nests.

The EU isn’t made up of unelected foreign bureaucrats. The EU benefits it’s members - no one else.

Parliament is not against the people.

Parliament is against no deal.

Additionally, there is no "The People" because there is not enough of a consensus amongst citizens.

we’re surrendering to capitalist club full of people feathering their own nests.

I just about agree on this. Except that I would say that we are being exploited by capitalists - most of whom are probably British. The PM's own sister has said as much on Sky news.

People make money when currencies lose value. Average citizens (those you call "the people") don't though.

Mps are being investigated for colluding with eu over Benn bill

What you mean is Cummings has dropped some nonsense propaganda onto the front page of a Brexitty paper.

Parker my DH would also eat lettuce most days, as he has a French DM. However he hasn't managed to convince me of its worth in 28 years and I continue to maintain Scottish cabbage is better nutritionally.

www.healthline.com/nutrition/cabbage-vs-lettuce#bottom-line

Cabbage is also cheaper, grown locally and stores and travels better. I am not advocating all of us eating kimchi or sauerkraut as UK producers can provide fresh all winter long.

A microcosm of how being in the EU may have made certain habits more possible but not necessarily more desirable.