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Brexit

Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament

989 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 19:40

Parliament will reconvene tomorrow, at 11.30am, as if proroguation never happened as the Supreme Court ruled that the government acted outside the limits of its power and this was therefore unlawful.

The most senior court in the UK has ruled unaminously to defend Parliamentary Sovereignity and the Rule of British Law.

Unusually for a Wednesday there will be no PMQ, however there will be time for Ministerial Statements, UQ and Debate under S024.
See the abbreviation thread if you are struggling with these

So tomorrow is sure to be explosive on way or another.

The Government is hitting back by questioning the Supreme Court whilst also saying they respect the Supreme Court's authority. This is an oxymoron. Its being done for political reasons and is, in its own way, a direct threat to the Rule of Law.

Robert Buckland is, again, having to do a lot in Cabinet to assert the point of the importance of the Rule of Law and how it prevents mob rule. Something that seems to keep getting forgotten by anonymous No 10 sources.

The political fallout from the ruling is sure to lead to calls for the Supreme Court to be politically elected. This has been a long term goal of parts of the hard right.

Johnson, is currently in the US, so the announcement that parliament will be back tomorrow has rather spoilt his jolly to see his mate Donnie. He will have to get on a plane smartish.

But for all the hard talk there will also be ramifications for Johnson. Whilst there will be a lot of 'nothing has changed', and there is no chance of a VoNC in the HoC being tabled by the opposition whilst no deal is still on the table on the 31st Oct, there will still be problems for Johnson.

There will be a post mortem within his own party. The next Cabinet Meeting will almost certainly be explosive. There are already attempts to set Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General who apparently advised that proroguation was lawful, under the bus as the fall guy. This will perhaps be a deflection to try and protect Dominic Cummings, as there will be moderate Tories who will seek to use this as an opportunity to have him sacked. But more than this, its likely to result in other Cabinet Ministers being more forceful and to challenge Johnson more, both for their own political gain and for their own political protection. He will certainly be more questioned from within, about his poor judgement.

We also have him facing an investigation from the London Assembly over his conduct and suggestions of an inappropriate relationship with a busty blonde American woman.

Next weeks Conservative Party Conference is now in tatters. Whilst Corbyn has wrapped up the Labour Party Conference early to avoid a clash with Parliament being open, Johnson is stuffed. Next week's PMQ will clash with the schedule for his Party Speech. Normally parliament would be in recess for the conference season, but parliament has to vote to allow this. And there isn't a majority for the Conservatives to now be able to do this. So Parliament almost certainly will be sitting next week.

Unfortunately, the Tories are a little stuffed with their conference being held in Manchester. If (and lets face it, with the gloves off and time short) the opposition want to cause mischief, they will try and schedule crucial and embarassing debates during the party conference, to keep MPs stuck in Westminister as much as possible. And with good reason under the circumstances.

We still have the small matter of the 31st October deadline which Johnson is still sticking to saying we will either have a deal or we will leave without a deal - unlawfully.

Remember on that note, Johnson has already acted beyond his power and unlawfully on the basis of bad advice. Johnson being hulk, rather than a girly swat, relies on the advice of others more heavily than his own wisdom and experience - of which he has been exposed time and again - to be somewhat lacking in.

As a side note, its also worth reflecting on the NCA having dropped charges in relation to Leave.Eu and how the Electoral Commission has commented on this decision:
"We are concerned about the apparent weakness in the law, highlighted by this investigation outcome, which allows overseas funds into UK politics. We have made recommendations that would tighten the rules on campaign funding and deter breaches. We urge the UK's governments to act on those recommendations to support voter confidence"

In the context of an imminent General Election, this is really very concerning indeed.

Just WHO is in control? Cos it doesn't look like its Boris Johnson right now, thats for sure.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:30

Superb post, red

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:34

"Boris: who runs Britain"

That takes me back to 1974, when Heath chose exactly that slogan for the GE

The voters replied "Not you, chum !"

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 24/09/2019 22:43

Ironically didn’t Heath then earn the nickname “the Incredible Sulk” for his petulant behaviour.

DarkAtEndOfUk · 24/09/2019 22:45

Meanwhile, for the shallower ones among us... Newsthump's nicked my joke newsthump.com/2019/09/24/boris-johnson-pledges-to-take-prorogation-fight-all-the-way-to-the-european-court-of-justice/

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 22:46

More on that Tim Shipman thread

Tim Shipman @shippersunbound
The galvanising effect will be the same on people who feel their vote has been stolen from them by different branches of the establishment. How can’t you see how dangerous this all is?

Jessica Simor QC @ JMPSimor
I take the opposite view. It is your job, my job, every body's job to make it clear that in ensuring that representatives of the people are able to represent 'the people' by scrutinising the executive, the Court is keeping us free. It is basic. You can help by making that clear

Tim Shipman*@shippersunbound*
But the people who brought the base don’t give a monkeys about Parliament. They just want to stop Brexit and that is how it will be seen. I know you’d like to do the same. This doesn’t end well. Parliament should either vote for a deal or call an election

Jessica Simor QC @JMPSimor
That is not the point. You are fixated on emotion but law matters - the sovereignty of Parliament, the role of the Courts, the executive and the legislature. These are not details, they are fundamentals.

And I should add to that, that as soon as the executive claims its powers as directly conferred by 'the people', we have tyranny. This is really very, very old news.

Scots lune @fitlike01
Shippers is only interested in helping his political mukkas and sources of tittle tattle especially Gavin Williamson achieve whatever they want

Tim Shipman*@shippersunbound*
No, I’ve written millions of words about Brexit and I’m profoundly depressed that we have reached this point

Jessica Simor QC @JMPsimor
What point would you have liked us to have reached today?

I think Shipman is simply coming from a different angle.

He's getting a hard time and I think it's perhaps somewhat unfair.

His concern is political but the concern of others is purely legal.

Neither is wrong.

The only thing Shipman is wrong on, is the idea that if the judges are truly impartial they were not free to make a political judgement in the way he seems to be suggesting.

He blames the courts for the problem but the courts involvement is a symptom of political polarisation rather than a cause of political polarisation.

Referendum were a feature of the 1930s...

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:46

"Political vacuums are really really bad things. "

Yes and they are always a risk if a govt calls a referendum when it is not willing and able to carry out the decision, whichever side wins

and within its own term of office
That's another aspect which ties Parliament in knots :

It's not just about this govt
Brexit would be a long process of several years, so the decision now seriously affects future Parliaments and governments of whatever party
It's not like a normal policy which the next govt can promptly reverse and reset things to the way they were

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:52

If we continue to have hung Parliaments, then the Courts are likely to continue being involved in making decisions about what a PM or Parliament must / can't do

Particularly if other minority PMs get tempted to use their powers ("inherited" from the monarch) to sidestep Parliament

One would hope parties would get used to negotiating coalitions, like some other countries manage to do
but the winner-takes-all mentality still seems ingrained in UK politics

prettybird · 24/09/2019 22:55

Can't who it was that pointed out that BJ-Cummings should have been cognisant of the fact that he was leading a minority government and tried to reach consensus as such - and I think then made some comment that we are not capable of doing that within the UK. (Threads are moving so fast and are so long that I can't find it again Blush)

It might not be possible with the current mindset of WM, but the SNP successfully completed a term running a minority government in Holyrood 2007-2011 (going on to win a majority in 2011 Smile in a system designed not to have majorities Confused) and is currently mid-way through another term of a successful (imho Wink) minority government (when the d'Hondt system went back to working properly in 2016 Grin).

OublietteBravo · 24/09/2019 22:56

PMK.

I’ve just about caught up. There were some interesting visitors on the last thread. I think it’s worth remembering that lawyer is a generic term, not a protected title (unlike barrister, for example).

Let’s see what tomorrow brings..,

PerkingFaintly · 24/09/2019 22:59

PMK. Thank you RTB.

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 23:02

Leave. EU and vote leave were vehicles for the political ideals of a small number of hard right politicians. This mixed with a potent naked ambition for several men. They sought to exploit the political rupture the referendum created. I don't believe any of the three worst offenders really thought it'd happen. Initially winning was a bad thing but they are all opportunists at a time where others lacked the vision to see what was happening nor to provide an alternative adequate response. The phrase 'continuity remainers' is one that sticks in my mind.

The cultural and institutional vandalism of the last 3 years will have long lasting effects.

I'm not sure we'll shake the referendum fall out in terms of our identities for a generation at least.

But those are even more deep rooted things. The ref deliberately sought to exploit social divides and fractures that were already there.

We need change. It will happen because Brexit will force it. I fear that we'll face a period of real problems that will damage the country irreversibly before we get a grip and stabilise. Our influence will be long gone by then and we'll be a shadow of what the country once was. I'd say that maybe that's no bad thing given how we've treated most of the world at one point or another. The trouble is I think it just means we'll be on the receiving end instead.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 23:03

General relief from this side of the Channel that at least the UK Supreme Court is doing its job to protect democracy:

Jean-Claude PIRISS@piris*jj_c

On Brexit I agree that it might not change any thing.

On the respect of the rule of law in general and on the respect of the rights of the Parliament in a parliamentary democracy it is stopping some risks.
 ======
Paul Adamson@AdamsonPaul

Call me a girly swot but I am feeling very emotional (and elated) by the Supreme Court's unanimous decision. I can't be the only one.

Jean-Claude PIRISS@piris*jc

And you must be proud of the British judicial authority and independence !

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 23:05

Papers

Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
OP posts:
colouringinpro · 24/09/2019 23:05

pmk

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 23:05

Last two

Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
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Arborea · 24/09/2019 23:07

“The moral is that under our constitution 52 per cent cannot expect to carry off 100 per cent of the spoils. They have to engage with the rest. That is what parliament is for.”

Good grief, I'm finding myself agreeing with Lord Sumption - it must be time for bed!

Arborea · 24/09/2019 23:09

By the way, here's a link about how Supreme Court judges are actually appointed: www.supremecourt.uk/about/appointments-of-justices.html

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 23:14

"I'm not sure we'll shake the referendum fall out in terms of our identities for a generation at least."

Yep. DIfficult to think of anything but a referendum that could have caused such a destructive political earthquake,
jammed Parliament,
put vital institutions under strain
Bitterly divided the country

Transformed an ordinary Uk conservative party into a hard right party with nihilist tendencies
3 Tory PMs in as many years, maybe even a 4th soon

and we still don't know if Brexit will happen or how

Only 5% of people rated the EU as an important topic before 2015

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 23:15

The hard right have been growing wihin the Tory party for years, but Brexit enabled them to metastise and take over

LurpakIsTheOnlyButter · 24/09/2019 23:18

New thread, had to skip most of the last as can't keep up.

Has anyone asked what PMK means on this thread yet? 😁

thecatfromjapan · 24/09/2019 23:19

.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 23:20

The worst case consequences of No Deal, as we've discussed before, are that the UK becomes another object lesson like Argentina:
some stupid decisions in a formerly rich & stable country causing it to fall off the cliff and never recover either its prosperity or stable democracy

merrymouse · 24/09/2019 23:21

Re: Tim Shipman's tweet above:

"But the people who brought the base don’t give a monkeys about Parliament. They just want to stop Brexit and that is how it will be seen. I know you’d like to do the same. This doesn’t end well. Parliament should either vote for a deal or call an election"

He seems to ignore that treating the prorogation as a completely political matter would also have had consequences - both creating a precedent and delegitimising the Brexit process in the eyes of the many, many people who are not supporters of the current government.

It's very clear that the country is split and that no course of action commands a majority, but even Leave supporting politicians seem to assume that only one group of people can be mature, informed and pragmatic, and they aren't Leavers. It's very odd.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 23:22

Westministenders' Abbreviations:

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eureferendumm2016/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation?msgid=84503730

GhostWalk · 24/09/2019 23:23

Goodness me...I wonder what tomorrow will bring 😬