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Brexit

Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament

989 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 19:40

Parliament will reconvene tomorrow, at 11.30am, as if proroguation never happened as the Supreme Court ruled that the government acted outside the limits of its power and this was therefore unlawful.

The most senior court in the UK has ruled unaminously to defend Parliamentary Sovereignity and the Rule of British Law.

Unusually for a Wednesday there will be no PMQ, however there will be time for Ministerial Statements, UQ and Debate under S024.
See the abbreviation thread if you are struggling with these

So tomorrow is sure to be explosive on way or another.

The Government is hitting back by questioning the Supreme Court whilst also saying they respect the Supreme Court's authority. This is an oxymoron. Its being done for political reasons and is, in its own way, a direct threat to the Rule of Law.

Robert Buckland is, again, having to do a lot in Cabinet to assert the point of the importance of the Rule of Law and how it prevents mob rule. Something that seems to keep getting forgotten by anonymous No 10 sources.

The political fallout from the ruling is sure to lead to calls for the Supreme Court to be politically elected. This has been a long term goal of parts of the hard right.

Johnson, is currently in the US, so the announcement that parliament will be back tomorrow has rather spoilt his jolly to see his mate Donnie. He will have to get on a plane smartish.

But for all the hard talk there will also be ramifications for Johnson. Whilst there will be a lot of 'nothing has changed', and there is no chance of a VoNC in the HoC being tabled by the opposition whilst no deal is still on the table on the 31st Oct, there will still be problems for Johnson.

There will be a post mortem within his own party. The next Cabinet Meeting will almost certainly be explosive. There are already attempts to set Geoffrey Cox, the Attorney General who apparently advised that proroguation was lawful, under the bus as the fall guy. This will perhaps be a deflection to try and protect Dominic Cummings, as there will be moderate Tories who will seek to use this as an opportunity to have him sacked. But more than this, its likely to result in other Cabinet Ministers being more forceful and to challenge Johnson more, both for their own political gain and for their own political protection. He will certainly be more questioned from within, about his poor judgement.

We also have him facing an investigation from the London Assembly over his conduct and suggestions of an inappropriate relationship with a busty blonde American woman.

Next weeks Conservative Party Conference is now in tatters. Whilst Corbyn has wrapped up the Labour Party Conference early to avoid a clash with Parliament being open, Johnson is stuffed. Next week's PMQ will clash with the schedule for his Party Speech. Normally parliament would be in recess for the conference season, but parliament has to vote to allow this. And there isn't a majority for the Conservatives to now be able to do this. So Parliament almost certainly will be sitting next week.

Unfortunately, the Tories are a little stuffed with their conference being held in Manchester. If (and lets face it, with the gloves off and time short) the opposition want to cause mischief, they will try and schedule crucial and embarassing debates during the party conference, to keep MPs stuck in Westminister as much as possible. And with good reason under the circumstances.

We still have the small matter of the 31st October deadline which Johnson is still sticking to saying we will either have a deal or we will leave without a deal - unlawfully.

Remember on that note, Johnson has already acted beyond his power and unlawfully on the basis of bad advice. Johnson being hulk, rather than a girly swat, relies on the advice of others more heavily than his own wisdom and experience - of which he has been exposed time and again - to be somewhat lacking in.

As a side note, its also worth reflecting on the NCA having dropped charges in relation to Leave.Eu and how the Electoral Commission has commented on this decision:
"We are concerned about the apparent weakness in the law, highlighted by this investigation outcome, which allows overseas funds into UK politics. We have made recommendations that would tighten the rules on campaign funding and deter breaches. We urge the UK's governments to act on those recommendations to support voter confidence"

In the context of an imminent General Election, this is really very concerning indeed.

Just WHO is in control? Cos it doesn't look like its Boris Johnson right now, thats for sure.

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BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 21:53

Same sort of flak Mary Beard gets
HIghly intelligent knowledgeable woman at the top of her profession ... with grey hair
That suggests witches & conspiracies to certain people Hmm

mrslaughan · 24/09/2019 21:54

@pointythings - I completely agree . Profusing to know about the law - but it's all Lady Hales fault.
Bit like they want to take back sovereignty- but only their version of sovereignty.
I find the stuff tonight scary - JRM and #10 completely unrepentant and doubling up the attack.
Was it too much for them to just move on..... obviously- but really scary.
And this continued myth about negotiations going on - and parliament is going to jeopardise this.

They want the power concentrated into a v small group of people- let's hope we can stop that.....

prettybird · 24/09/2019 21:54

I genuinely don't understand Tim Shipman's logic that the Supreme Court judges^ will regret allowing themselves to be dragged into politics.^ Confused

Surely choosing not to apply the law (or rather, choosing not to ignore the unlawfulness) would in itself be political? Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 21:54

How far have we come when sometimes the DUP has sounded like a voice of sanity Hmm

JuliaCheeser · 24/09/2019 21:57

Exactly my thinking BCF, nothing I'd disagree with at all in Arlene Foster's tweet. Then again, she isn't standing in the next election I believe.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 21:58

I don't think anyone here ever regarded JRM as a loveable eccentric
He's still looking vastly more dangerous in govt, i.e. now he has real power and the mask really slips

His carefully designed public image still fools most folk who aren't watching carefully

mrslaughan · 24/09/2019 21:58

@BigChocFrenzy - was just discussing that with my husband!!!!

Re ; Stephen what's his name getting all frothy at the mouth - I couldn't understand his logic and why he was so wound up......

flouncyfanny · 24/09/2019 22:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:05

He's always tightly wound ... but still has a screw loose Grin

JuliaCheeser · 24/09/2019 22:10

Ulster Unionist Party not happy with Boris. Interesting indeed.

uup.org/news/6239/21/PM-must-focus-on-Brexit-solution-not-macho-rhetoric-Lord-Empey#.XYqFBIWcFjo

Ulster Unionist Peer, Lord Empey, has criticised the Government’s handling of Parliament, saying it has been “dreadful” since Boris Johnson became Prime Minister.
Lord Empey said:
“With a stunning and potentially ground-breaking ruling from the Supreme Court, it is clear that the Prime Minister is being very badly advised.
“The Government's handling of Parliament since Boris Johnson became Prime Minister has been dreadful. Decisions have been made that even a very junior official could have seen were undeliverable.
“The PM needs to accept that he leads a minority government and controls neither House of Parliament. He must act accordingly and concentrate on getting a consensus for a workable proposal when we go back tomorrow, to put on the table in Brussels. All this macho rhetoric is ridiculous.
“He should commence a new approach by getting advisors into No 10 who know what they are doing and who themselves are not publicity seekers.
“Our country is bleeding good will and cohesion at an alarming rate. Nowhere is this more obvious than in Northern Ireland. Boris must get a grip of this and broaden his base of support in Parliament and no longer be totally reliant on those with a very narrow agenda.”

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:12

Cordelia Lynchh@CordeliaSkyNews*

.@BorisJohnson quips back, "always remembering the NHS is not for sale."

Mr. Trump suggested it might be during the UK/US state visit

prettybird · 24/09/2019 22:15

Cox is talking through a hole in his arse.

As a lawyer, he should be more precise. Hmm

Prorogation for the purposes of a Queens Speech in the last 90 years have much shorter (4-8 days) and as such would not have been unlawful, within the scope of the parliamentary scrutiny that the Supreme Court would accept to be reasonable within a Parliamentary democracy.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/LLN-2019-0111#fullreport

If you look at the full report, you can see that almost all the longer ones in that period were for the purposes of a GE.

placemats · 24/09/2019 22:17

How far have we come when sometimes the DUP has sounded like a voice of sanity

RUBBISH! It is a quisling party. I would rather BJ give me a lift home from a party than anyone from the DUP.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:17

Beth Rigby✔@BethRigby

Govt source tells me to expect a quick push for an election again (perhaps even as early as this week).

No 10 will frame it as a gridlocked govt, time to end the paralysis.

It won’t fly until Johnson agrees extension.
He won’t as that’s political suicide.

We grind on.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 24/09/2019 22:19

Good Grief
I need a lie down

I have just nodded along in agreement to Reg Empey.

How far away from the centre is the cabinet when Reg Empey becomes the calm voice of moderation and reason.

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 22:19

Yep, red Safeguarding our democracy became a much higher priority for me than Remain from about December
I think you saw the degree of danger quite a bit earlier
I seriously underestimated it until then - maybe I'm too far away here

Sadly much earlier. Much much earlier.

I feared it pre ref, but hoped I was wrong. Political vacuums are really really bad things.

I saw it in parallel with Trump and in a lot of what Sarah Kendzior was saying about the US. I knew it directly translated and wasn't just about Farage and Banks. What the Tories were doing and what the hardliners believe in and want to bring to the UK were always as bad if not worse because of the veneer of respectability.

It just keeps following that same curve though.

I agree a lot with what Shipman is saying, but I disagree that the ruling was flawed.

I think the SC fundamentally didn't have anywhere else to go, if they ruled they could intervene. The fact the decision was unamimous speeches volumes about that. It became a simple question about the scope of power.

Indeed I think Professor Mark Elliott largely says that far from being controversial was a fairly simple constitutional question in this blog from earlier this month
publiclawforeveryone.com/2019/09/12/prorogation-and-justiciability-some-thoughts-ahead-of-the-cherry-miller-no-2-case-in-the-supreme-court/

(His blog on A50 was largely followed by the SC and it seems they've done similar this time around)

He's written a further blog on the ruling here:
publiclawforeveryone.com/2019/09/24/the-supreme-courts-judgment-in-cherry-miller-no-2-a-new-approach-to-constitutional-adjudication/

He reflects that the court did follow part of his argument but did differ from it.

In terms of whether the ruling was conservative or radical in how far it went he says:

Reactions to the unanimous Supreme Court judgment in Cherry/Miller (No 2) [2019] UKSC 41 have been as strong as they have been diverse. On one analysis — including, arguably, the Court’s own — the judgment amounts to nothing more than an affirmation and application, albeit in a politically fraught context, of orthodox constitutional law. On other views, the judgment breaks new legal ground — and, depending on one’s perspective, in doing so either strikes a much-needed blow for constitutional principle or results in wholly improper judicial interference in the political arena. Against this background, this post considers four respects in which the judgment might be argued (in either positive or pejorative terms) to be novel. I suggest that the better view is that while the judgment develops and applies relevant elements of UK public law in sometimes novel ways — and certainly in novel circumstances — it is rooted in well-established constitutional principles. On this view, the case amounts to a significant restatement of a range of key matters, but cannot justifiably be criticised as having cast aside established principle or as an instance of improper judicial overreach.

I think the Queen is in a similar position to the SC in being damned either way.

That's the problem with the culture war. It seeks to polarise. Polarisation is about destroying the centre which holds those things that hold society together and moderate. Both the SC and the Queen (as a neutral entity of state) fall into this void. Ditto Parliament. The centre is what holds power to account through compromise and balance. Polarisation is an extensional threat to democracy for this reason.

In this context from Lord Sumpton (who was on the SC until recently)

Henry Zeffman @hzeffman
Thought-provoking piece on today’s judgment by Lord Sumption

He says: “The moral is that under our constitution 52 per cent cannot expect to carry off 100 per cent of the spoils. They have to engage with the rest. That is what parliament is for.”

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/16b3dd0e-decb-11e9-9f61-dcefea5f5359
Supreme Court ruling is the natural result of Boris Johnson’s constitutional vandalism

And of course that was even more true because there never was a 52% who agree on what leave was, and the 2017 vote was a reflection of that fragmentation.

Can things be turned around?

That's what I worry about.

As for you being too far away and out of the loop as you can't read the mood by talking to people. Perhaps, perhaps not. I'd argue perhaps you just don't look into the darkness of you imagination so much, and maybe that says more about me rather than you. And maybe thats not the worst thing in the world.

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placemats · 24/09/2019 22:21

Let's all listen to the people (well three of them) from Stoke. FFS BBC.

youkiddingme · 24/09/2019 22:22

Thank you red. I don't often post but I'm a regular lurker on your threads and really appreciate the time you put into this.

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 22:23

More papers

Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
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placemats · 24/09/2019 22:25

The EU thinks the ruling is a domestic matter. Rightly so. Nothing to do with Brexit.

Get the Deal Boris. If you can't do that. Go.

BigChocFrenzy · 24/09/2019 22:28

The DUP acknowledged the rule of law this case and accepted the Supreme Court's decision without criticism

They may well be secretly fuming and it sure as hell doesn't make them virtuous, but the 2 statements sounded reasonable.

I contrast, BJ, Cummings, JRM et al are in government and being openly defiant and hostile towards judges
Very dangerous

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 24/09/2019 22:28

Tony Blair in his interview with John Humphreys on JH’s last Today programme talked about how both parties had abandoned the centre ground.

I don’t think the country is as polarised on Brexit as the extremes on both sides would have you believe. But neither of the two big parties is really attempting to coalesce the middle ground “if we have to go then let’s go on the best terms possible” people on all sides.

PestyMachtubernahme · 24/09/2019 22:29

BJCumms misled lied to the Queen, the DUP will be fecking furrious.
She is one of King Billy's descendants.
Forget the magic money tree, this is personal.

dontcallmelen · 24/09/2019 22:30

PMK thank you Red & all contributors just caught up on the previous thread, was indeed a very momentous day.

RedToothBrush · 24/09/2019 22:30

More papers.

Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
Westministenders: The Non Re-Opening Of Parliament
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