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Brexit

Westminstenders: Supreme Democracy

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 15/09/2019 19:45

Tuesday is the big day about prorogation.

The Supreme Court hears the case of Cherry and Miller against the government.

This could test the constitution and the union. The Supreme Court sits as both as a Scottish Court and and English Court and applies Scottish / English law accordingly. And there are differences. It is possible that prorogation might only be illegal under one or the other but would have effect on parliament. Or its possible that the Supreme Court might decide to uphold the government position.

What is encouraging is the constitutional expert blogs which suggest that they lean to the court intervening. It's important that for the A50 case the Supreme Court referenced the arguments in these blogs.

But let's not get too carried away.

As it is Joe Moor, former director of legislative affairs at 10 Downing Street wrote in today's Telegraph that Johnson could merely prorogue again from Oct 14 "until at least Nov 6" thus preventing parliamentary scrutiny of no deal which would help enable in effect illegally. The Times also reported Cummings as having said this to advisors.

This has been dismissed by legal experts, but the point remains there is a willingness to both frustrate parliament and be as obstructive as possible in the days leading up to 31st.

There is also the 'Nobile Officium' Court action designed to stop illegal no deal by allowing the courts to write a letter to the EU to request an extension of Johnson refuses to.

It remains to be seen if it has even a chance of success.

The British press has been full of comments of optimism for a deal this weekend. This is after there was positive noises in a similar vein from Brussels. These has since been largely dismissed as mere political will with no practical progress. The British optimism has also been dismissed as mere posturing. And Priti Patel "misspoke" when she appeared to suggest that no deal was no policy this morning.

Other rumours include the French willing to grant a 2year extension but not a 3month one out of fear this will happen repeatedly. The French are now pushing for a deal and relaxing their approach as such (but Germany won't compromise the single market and Ireland the GFA so its all talk).

And do not forget, for all the talk of a deal there are certain time restrains.

Apparently Nikki da Costa has a timetable to get a deal through parliament in 'just ten days' on a spreadsheet. So that gives you an idea that the 19th October is possibly the last day to get a deal in front of parliament if you completely accept that we are leaving without any extension. This neglects the issue that a new deal isn't on the table from the EU and the backstop isn't going anywhere.

A last minute deal or no deal situation is highly risky with the ERG on one side and hard core Remainers who think Johnson won't defy the Benn Amendment and thus will try and block a deal to the last

It seems that we will have a game of cat and mouse until the bitter end.

OP posts:
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Ellie56 · 17/09/2019 14:00

So apparently Johnson hasn't prepared a witness statement for the Court?? Wow.

Is anyone really surprised? Liar Johnson doesn't do coherent explanations. He only does "wiffle waffle" and running away from awkward questions.

MrPan · 17/09/2019 14:02

It would be reassuring if the SC did take an inference from this. Could be a variety of inferences, but none of them good for Johnson.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 14:05

Panick said the govt has stated it would comply with the court decision

However, the court won't be instructing the govt / PM what to do, merely whether prorogue is illegal - a getout ?

bellinisurge · 17/09/2019 14:06

My experience of courts and tribunals is that they wouldn't think positively of it where one of the parties couldn't be arsed to submit a statement.
Doesn't mean the court will find against the government on the substantive issue but I expect to read a bollocking in the final decision for not doing that.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 14:10

BJ approval ratings may encourage him to continue prorogue

  • easier for him to keep the Opposition out of the headlines and keep boosting his own ratings

Also may encourage him later to avoid complying with the Benn bill

DarlingNikita · 17/09/2019 14:18

The podium stunt comes over as bullying.

Boris Johnson and his cronies recently spent an entire working day calling Jeremy Corbyn a chicken in ever-more childish ways. He has tried to threaten the EU negotiators with his 'Hulk' shit. And it's teh Luxembourg PM who's the bully?

Aye right like as if.

Margaret Thatcher (and I loathed her) would have asked for her mike to be turned up, fronted up to the protestors and done the conference without a hair coming loose.

JeSuisPoulet · 17/09/2019 14:24

0lga excellent point, thanks!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 14:25

Yep, if a few dozen British expats peacefully yelling "bog of, Boris" make our PM run away,
how on earth would he avoid crapping himself in front of Putin ?

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 14:29

Yep, MrsT would have held a press conf in front of a small peaceful crowd and powered her way through the questions

  • she faced down cries of "ditch the bitch" from much louder, angrier crowds
PickleSarnie · 17/09/2019 14:32

Does anyone know when the Supreme Court are due to make their decision? Is it a one day hearing?

NotaRealLawyer · 17/09/2019 14:32

Hello all,
Lord Keen Scottish AG, getting a nasty twitch in his cheek there.
I don't think he is too happy.

NotaRealLawyer · 17/09/2019 14:34

Pickle it could be a few days, it is being said, with decision next week.

DGRossetti · 17/09/2019 14:34

Margaret Thatcher (and I loathed her) would have asked for her mike to be turned up, fronted up to the protestors and done the conference without a hair coming loose.

Does anyone recall the speech (conference) where there was a scuffle as some protesters were trying to get in, and Mrs. T said something like "No, let them in, it's always better where the Conservatives are" or something like that. Entire hall erupts into applause and protesters are immediately consigned to the "nice try mate" drawer of history.

MockersthefeMANist · 17/09/2019 14:41

There was also John Major on his soapbox, giving as good as he got.

Best of all, Lord Hailsham, who beckoned protestors forward with their placards, which when they came within reach, he would demolish with his walking stick.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/09/2019 14:45

Yep, these Tories are not Conservatives but they are chickens

cherin · 17/09/2019 14:52

0lga :-))) I don’t have cats either. And only one freezer. But I agree, reduce risks in case of failure, distribute things around (and then dig, dig, to find your stuff)

I haven’t got toilet paper. I don have space to put it, plus the fire risk. Small London flat. Is it really that important? (Can you use the evening standard if things go bad?)
(Sorry, I know it’s not the right thread)

NotaRealLawyer · 17/09/2019 14:54

Good to follow Joshua Rozenberg here, he is picking up the key points, very helpful.
twitter.com/JoshuaRozenberg

Hoooo · 17/09/2019 15:08

Hi!

So...what's occuring?

Been out all day so haven't been following...

GoFiguire · 17/09/2019 15:20

Hooki BoJo has resigned and joined an order of Cistercian monks.

NotaRealLawyer · 17/09/2019 15:27

Hooo
My view is David Pannick QC for Gina Miller, cogent case, well developed arguments. Includes:

  1. The failure of PM to give witness statement/ affidavit to court permits Supreme Court to draw an adverse inference as to his intentions in proroguing Parliament.
  1. The Executive can only ever be junior to the power of Parliament.

Lady Hale of Supreme Court is a sharp cookie and asks awkward questions. ( My hero)

Live link.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-49722759

Now on is Lord Keen Scottish Attorney General, for Government. I don't think he is doing too good a job of trying to justify the proroguing. But then I'm biased.

0lga · 17/09/2019 15:28

Don’t get my hopes up

Lisette1940 · 17/09/2019 15:28

He won't commit to any of the Cistercian rules though.

NotaRealLawyer · 17/09/2019 15:29

GoFiguireGrin

Lisette1940 · 17/09/2019 15:29

I don't think Keen is doing as well.

Hoooo · 17/09/2019 15:32

Go 😊
Tbh I wouldn't be surprised...

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