The Brexit Arms

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47 days to go.....

Deal, no deal or delay...???

Remainers are circling the wagons ready for their last stand....

Stand fast Brexit backers and hold the line!!

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Mystery - over 1m UK citizens live in other EU countries (excluding Ireland). Not an insignificant number. Perhaps people would still like the opportunities this brings?

Considering UK has a population of 67 million, that 1 million live in EU is insignificant

Why go through all this hassle and huge multi billionaire expenditure to leave unilaterally now then

Leaving before the collapse is better. Remember that Trump wants the EU to break up

Good to have the opportunity and choice ?

The fact that an estimated 5.5m UK citizens live outside the UK

That's not even half the number of 65+ age group in UK

rhetorical question about UK citizens living "outside [the] UK

Question was in reply to Parkers comments about what might happen post brexit. Hence a prospective question.

Good to have the opportunity and choice

After UK leaves EU I would not be surprised if EU countries made it more easy for UK citizens to retire to EU so they can continue to tap into UK wealth.

Considering UK has a population of 67 million, that 1 million live in EU is insignificant

It's still over a million people. Not no one.
Those 1.2m people are, however, all too aware of how insignificant Brexit supporters and the UK government consider them and their basic human rights to be.

After UK leaves EU I would not be surprised if EU countries made it more easy for UK citizens to retire to EU so they can continue to tap into UK wealth.

UK citizens' spending power in the EU has already dropped quite significantly and will continue to fall as the pound does, so buying up property and living off a UK pension will not be as easy as before and there will be less wealth to "tap into" as you put it.
The EU have explicitly stated that citizens' rights are a reciprocal matter and yet they are still waiting for the UK to set up a workable, reliable process for settled status.
The EU is unlikely to want to provide healthcare for ageing UK citizens in coming years, especially in a post-NHS context where there will be even less satisfactory care than now for their citizens living in the UK.

UK pensioners in EU member states are not necessarily viewed in a very positive light, as many of them contribute little to the social fabric of the areas they move to.
In some areas they are directly responsible for housing problems, as they drove up property prices, preventing local populations from gaining access to the market.
They wouldn't necessarily be mourned much if they returned to the UK.

Remember that Trump wants the EU to break up

Ever wondered why? he doesn't like any organisation that brings smaller countries together to resist the might of the USA.

The EU will evolve but will still be here long after the UK has split.

Those 1.2m people are, however, all too aware of how insignificant Brexit supporters and the UK government consider them and their basic human rights to be

Leaving UK is optional. UK accepts dual citizenship. So those that have already left can return later if they wish.

so buying up property and living off a UK pension will not be as easy as before and there will be less wealth to "tap into" as you put it

Take a look at the cost of living in Eastern European countries.

UK pensioners in EU member states are not necessarily viewed in a very positive light, as many of them contribute little to the social fabric of the areas they move to.
In some areas they are directly responsible for housing problems, as they drove up property prices, preventing local populations from gaining access to the market

Mass immigration into UK caused similar problems. Immigration was key in the leave victory in 2016.

I'm well aware of the cost of living in Eastern European countries. You are being disingenuous at best if you are suggesting that droves of UK pensioners with zero language skills or cultural knowledge will move to Poland, Slovakia, etc., where the healthcare system is not geared up for such an influx. Poland is encouraging its own working-age population home, not inciting UK pensioners to move there.
The reasons UK pensioners move to Spain and France are often weather-related, as everyone knows, and E. Europe is far less enticing.
The ONS link I gave earlier showed top destinations for UK pensioners.

The vast majority of EU immigrants in the UK contribute more to the in taxes than they take from the state, as has been repeatedly demonstrated. They also work and prop up the UK healthcare and agricultural sectors, as well as the catering industry.
They are in no way comparable to UK pensioners in Spain or Italy.

They also work and prop up the UK healthcare and agricultural sectors, as well as the catering industry

Which takes jobs from natives.

UK pensioners who live outside of UK place no burden on UK

Which takes jobs from natives.

Which fills jobs many UK citizens won't condescend to do.

UK pensioners who live outside of UK place no burden on UK

So it’s OK for UK citizens to place a burden on other countries but the reverse is completely unacceptable? 🤔

Do you think any of this stuff through?

And I wasn't suggesting UK pensioners outside the UK are a burden on the UK.
I was refuting your suggestion that EU citizens do not contribute in the UK, and your claim that in this respect they are like UK pensioners living (often in English-speaking enclaves, not paying taxes or contributing to the local community) in the EU. The two are not comparable.

It's wearisome stuff, this.

Which fills jobs many UK citizens won't condescend to do

More accurate to say

allowed to decline because benefits are payable

Only in recent years that UK government introduced laws that allowed benefits to be reduced or cancellled if claimants refused work. However, it was too late. The immigration invasion had already happened.

So it’s OK for UK citizens to place a burden on other countries but the reverse is completely unacceptable

If they are working or retired with private income and health insurance, where does the burden come from?

And I wasn't suggesting UK pensioners outside the UK are a burden on the UK

Good

I was refuting your suggestion that EU citizens do not contribute in the UK, and your claim that in this respect they are like UK

If taxes paid by EU immigrants are less than the benefits received by the UK whose job was taken, how is that not a loss to UK?

Actually a fair few UK pensioners living in Spain are a burden on the UK economy. A good number of small time BTL landlords in London and the South East finance their Spanish lifestyle with income from their UK rental income.

So given that reciprocity is going to happen is it better that they return home to be a burden and you lose the tax payers who aren’t, or would you rather keep those that can contribute to tax coffers and keep the pensioners in Spain

UK state pension is only index linked if the recipient lives in the UK. If they move to Spain they will receive the same figure as on the day they left UK. So it is a saving to UK if they leave.

If taxes paid by EU immigrants are less than the benefits received by the UK whose job was taken, how is that not a loss to UK?

A UK citizen who is UK resident under the SRT (Statutory Residence Test) can be means tested if they go into care. A typical example is property, pensions, assets, etc., being confiscated to fund care. A UK citizen, but who is neither domiciled nor resident, does not get caught in that trap. Hence those that can retire outside of UK take the opportunity.

Non UK citizens who work in UK often rent rather than buy property to avoid the same trap. Also they send money to their native country to make sure they don't accrue any significant liquid assets. If in old age they need health care it will be provided for free at UK cost, even though they have assets elsewhere.

A good number of small time BTL landlords in London and the South East finance their Spanish lifestyle with income from their UK rental income

UK source income is subject to UK tax assessment even if the person is resident outside UK.

"UK state pension is only index linked if the recipient lives in the UK. If they move to Spain they will receive the same figure as on the day they left UK

Not according to my pensioner friends in Spain - or the Government. UK pensioners do receive increases in the EEA and certain other countries.

www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/rates-of-state-pension

UK state pension is only index linked if the recipient lives in the UK. If they move to Spain they will receive the same figure as on the day they left UK. So it is a saving to UK if they leave.

That’s wrong.

The UK state pension increases every year if you live in the EEA, Gibraltar, Switzerland, or countries that have a social security agreement with the UK such as the Channel Islands, IoM, Israel, USA etc.

It might not last, though:

"The UK government will continue to pay a State Pension to those eligible in the EU after Brexit. Your UK State Pension will be uprated in April 2020, 2021 and 2022 if you live in the EU, EEA or Switzerland."
gov.uk website

@Starbucks

Read the wording of the link carefully. It reads

will usually....

Depends on many factors such as;

Residence

If your friends visit UK more than 91 days per tax year they will almost certainly be considered as UK residents and receive increments to state pension.

Domicile

If your friends have sold up everything in UK, sought citizenship in Spain and have relinquished UK passports they may qualify as non domiciled. They will not receive increments.

The UK state pension increases every year if you live in the EEA, Gibraltar, Switzerland, or countries that have a social security agreement with the UK such as the Channel Islands, IoM, Israel, USA etc

Depends on many factors.

Residence
Domicile
Intent
Connections with UK