Westminstenders: "I don't give a flying flamingo"

[RedToothBrush]

Amid scenes parliament was shut down.

In an unprecedented comment the Speaker, stated it was not an ordinary prorogation and it was blatantly an attempt to stop the executive being held to account.

And now it seems a Scottish Court agree with him:
"Lord Brodie cont: "the principal reasons for the prorogation were to prevent or impede parliament holding the executive to account and legislating with regard to Brexit, and to allow the executive to pursue a policy of a no deal Brexit without further parliamentary interference"

Thus parliament must reopen. Unless the decision is overturned in a higher court.

This is constitutionally a big deal. The Queen is highly unlikely to attend a reopening, especially in this manner, due to how political it now is.

General Election campaigning has already began with parties trying to take full advantage of the fact that there are currently no rules over spending.

Dominic Cummings actively and openly campaigning for the Conservatives whilst paid as a civil servant by the tax payer is a huge breech of the Civil service code but MPs are struggling to pin the government down on this as its being obstructive.

Cummings is keen to use data to target and personalise people based on their usage of the .gov portal for Brexit. This is OK as its in the national interest apparently. Its also incredibly sinister and concerning about how this could be used against the population.

Anyway if you thought parliament closing would result in a lull in events you were very much mistaken!!

What next?

That means that the Tories arent right wing but extreme right.

Did you miss the shift of narrative when Treeza left?

In some ways this new govt is more right wing (Patel's support for the police). In others it is more centrist (improvement in immigration prospects for overseas students). In most ways Johnson is much more liberal than May.
I don't think populism is necessarily right wing and nor is Brexit.

Lewis Goodall@lewisgoodall

Of course, this could all be overturned next week.
But the disputed process had put strain on/damaged:

-the relationship between parliament and executive
-the monarchy
-the Union
-the courts

Constitutionally it’s been a disaster.
And it was completely predictable.

This is the inevitable problem in saying we will leave “do or die” by October 31st.
If that is your only political objective and anything else is expendable,
as you rush towards it
is no surprise that plenty of other things get smashed along the way._

The response from Downing St and other allies of the PM is to say none of this matters, that the public back the govt to just “get brexit done.”
That may be the case (I actually think much of this is a turn off to many traditional Tory voters) but even if it’s true...

...electoral imperatives aren’t the only thing which matter here.

Being PM or the govt is a sacred trust, the custodians of our democracy.

Even if certain things are electorally popular/help you achieve your aim, they still ought not to be done...

...this probably falls into that category because of the strain it’s placed on our political institutions.

I happen to know prorogation was dismissed by the May govt for precisely those concerns

It is a matter of some wonder they seem not to be deemed important by her successor.

In sum, whatever the SC rules next week, it’s been a disaster.

It’s probably why, when it was first mooted by JRM (amongst others) in the May years, a political prorogation was dismissed as absurd.

What’s remarkable about the Brexit debate is the speed at which ideas go from fringe to mainstream with almost no intervening period whatsoever.

Has anyone properly challenged him in the press?

The job of the press is to sell papers. I wonder what tack they will take now ?

I also wonder if John Major is advising the Queen ? I seem to recall he's one of her preferred advisors ?

I do think that Constitutional experts will have to look at the whole situation after the event. As well as the egregious proroguing of Parliament being an immediate problem, the precedent being set is extremely worrying.

Was it a finding of fact that BJ lied to the Queen. If so and the lies happened in Balmoral does Scottish law prevail?

Oranginna No, populism can be right or left wing
We may see leftwing populism after No Deal with Corbyn mopping up the Tories in a GE a year or two after No Deal.

A small minority of those supporting Brext are Lexiters - including Corbyn until recently

Also, we can see where Hitler is on the 2D political graphs: left vs right and authoritarianism vs liberalism:
Although he is off the scale for authoritarianism, politically he is only right of centre

kingsassassin - re the English court decision:

1. It was 3 judges sitting as the Divisional Court, not a single High Court justice, and unsurprisingly it was a very senior panel comprising the Lord Chief Justice, the Master of the Rolls and the President of the Queen's Bench Division.

1. I agree that there will be room for attack at the Supreme Court stage on the justiciability argument if there is cogent evidence that the prerogative power was procedurally abused (e.g. by misleading the sovereign) rather than "just" used for a political purpose. No doubt Grieve and co had this in mind in calling for the underlying communications which have not yet been seen by any of the judges.

In others it is more centrist (improvement in immigration prospects for overseas students).

Sorry, but there isn't enough salt in the known and unknown universe to convince me that the recent press releases are anything more than recent press releases. They'd disappear faster than a fart in a hurricane were Boris to get re-elected.

When you can point me to something they have actually done, we can revisit the suggestion.

(or in the case of the US, how to run a continent )

Ahem. Canada and Mexico would politely disagree with you here. At this rate the UK is more likely to be the 51st state than my country of birth.

DS (age 5) is doing Geography for topic work this term. They've been colouring maps of the UK and learning about capital cities. So his question at tea time yesterday was "why is there Ireland and Northern Ireland?" I get the feeling that an awful lot to the geography he is currently learning may be obsolete before he leaves school

@LarkAscending, yes, thanks I've read the judgment. Even a senior high court is less likely to decide it is justiciable and a procedural abuse than a superior court. From the Jonathan Sumption interview in the Times, it appears to hinge on whether or not the issue is justiciable at all - he commented that it was morally wrong but legally permissible.

it will be interesting to see what the Supreme Court decides.

I'm going to suggest that come September 17th and the government/Boris will not submit what the court asks for, citing something about "national security".

Now if any of us tried that when we're up for not paying our council tax, we know what would happen.

Presumably the government is defending the action ? If so failing to produce evidence in your own defence is pretty much a "you lose old chap" situation ?

This govt is populist - the only populist UK Tory govt I can think of -
but currently showing no signs of being more centrist

So far it is both populist, v hard right authoritarian - and also nihilist, whenever Cummings drops the mask

nihilism is often a characteristic of populist fascism

This govt is not remotely Conservative

In others it is more centrist (improvement in immigration prospects for overseas students)

I think you have missed the new immigration rules regarding EU citizens then.
Even immigration lawyers now says that SS isnt reliable when it comes to securing staying in the UK. And people maybe should get the british cirizenship instead. Thats how bad it is....

Ahem. Canada and Mexico would politely disagree with you here. At this rate the UK is more likely to be the 51st state than my country of birth.

It wasn't meant as a slight to the two countries that share the continent with the US. More a reminder that the US grew from 13 states to 50 - with a civil war on the way - with only the Constitution to work to. (Which lays out territories, observers to congress, composition of congress, and powers for each part of the government and how to add states when needed ....). A document of some 28 pages.

And yes I agree about the current government being very hard (or extreme right?) authoritarian.

We are currently hanging onto demcracy by the end of our finger nails.

I get the feeling that an awful lot to the geography he is currently learning may be obsolete before he leaves school

Join the club. When I was growing up, Bonn was the capital of West Germany (Berlin was the capital of the FDR). Peking, Bombay, Calcutta were all places on the map ...

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/11/brexit-ultras-triumph-neoliberalism?CMP=share_btn_fb&fbclid=IwAR1px1xsOlfaHgXllLU7NpPFDqhTikXUCtK4kLsFX887DYABwNtQ18Fpo_E

The political compass is worth looking at, there's more to it than right/left.

Oh dear. Kay Burley.

‘What influence can Scottish judges have over a British, or rather English Parliament - English isn’t the right word - Parliament in Westminster? I’m tiptoeing here because someone will get upset.’

At the end of the interview - Reading from phone:

‘You know what I said about how people can get upset just like that ?

‘James Dornan, SMP -Did I really hear Kay Burley ask whether Scottish judges can tell English courts what to do?’

‘No - you didn’t. Watch it back on Youtube’

You've got to wonder whether this is a massive attempt just to get England to have its own Parliament.

Is the final objective to break up the Union?
So all these battles being 'lost' are leading to the ultimate objective?

.

You've got to wonder whether this is a massive attempt just to get England to have its own Parliament.

Which pretty much makes Scottish independence automatic.

I've asked a question...

AIBU to ask, if you could put one question to Boris Johnson what would it be? http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/amiibeingunreasonable/3689616-aibu-to-ask-if-you-could-put-one-question-to-boris-johnson-what-would-it-be