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Brexit

Westministenders: Parliament Perogies pushing Rats in the Corner

984 replies

RedToothBrush · 09/09/2019 19:35

One Opposition MP has just talked in parliament about how little the public understand what Preroguation is and what it meant. She described how one constituent thought it was about perogies.

The Benn Bill is now law and compels Johnson to ask for an extension if we have no deal.

Something that he has said he will die in a ditch to avoid and has suggested he would break the law.

But his options are hugely limited - if he refuses to do so and we no deal accidentally now, he is potentially personally liable for loses. He has no majority and the defeats keep on coming as a result.

Everything coming out now is the behaviour of a man with his back to the wall. The only thing he can do is frame everything as a people v the establishment and hope he survived until a GE. This is a dangerous time - he is now a rat in the corner with nothing to lose.

After Rudd's resignation, not much has got better for Johnson. Several other Tory MPs have signalled they won't stand again. This might mean they decide to rebel as they have nothing to lose. Lord Wellington, who has Tory written through him like a stick of rock, has also resigned the party. Attorney General Buckland hasn't resigned but has made threatening noises if the rule of law is broken.

Proroguation now does stack pressure on Johnson. He has to be the one to make moves and that is going to be difficult for him. However it also gives him time to say and do something without the scrutiny of parliament who have been blowing his arguments and legal assertions to bits with such ease.

Today he has visited Dublin where he stood next to Leo Varadkar who was less than polite nor even particularly diplomatic. The discomfort on Johnson's face and in his body language was very obvious. Varadkar in no uncertain terms said: ""if there is no deal, it will cause disruption for British and Irish people alike", adding "there's no such thing as a clean break, or just getting it done" and that he'd recieved no workable plan.

Tonight are two emergency debates. The first has just concluded about the government's lack of willingness to release documents relating to proroguation and operation yellowhammer.

Its been reported that ministers and civil servants have used private communications to conduct government ministers and this has caused huge concerns and Grieve wants to compel the government to release them. The government have responded saying this is an invasion of privacy. This has raised the accusation that Dominic Cummings personally has rifled through the phone messages of the former treasury communications officer as he sacked her and number 10 were not particularly concerned about her privacy then.

At the same time as the debate the government were briefing the press that they would refuse to comply with demands to release information. Grieve then made the point this was leading to the complete breakdown in trust in government.

David Allen Green said that if the government were to do this we could well be headed into a full blown constitutional crisis. This is the first time he's said he thinks we are actually at this stage.

Grieve was supported by the house by 311 votes to 302 votes ordering the government to release the documents.

The second debate is about the Rule of Law and the government's obligation to obey the Rule of Law.

Yet to come tonight is another vote about an early General Election before parliament pergoies, possibly in the early hours.

In other news John Bercow has decided to stand down at the next election or on the 31st October, which ever is sooner. There are rumours he was about to be deselected by his local conservative association and against convention would have to fight an election to win back his seat. He therefore was merely taking action before he was pushed. This might also be an action to protect parliament from the election of a new speaker after another election, fearing that there might be a hard right takeover which could threaten parliamentary soverignity.

Also this:
Declan Lawn @DecLawn
ERG stalwart Andrew Bridgen on @BBCPM saying the only way he could see a NI only backstop being acceptable is if it was put to an NI-only referendum. Fascinating.

OP posts:
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PerkingFaintly · 10/09/2019 23:32

#BestBrexitForBritain #MakeYourChoice

chomalungma · 10/09/2019 23:39

We've had 3 years of debates. You've listened. You've heard the arguments. Now we believe it's time for the British people to make their choice. A choice that will define this nation's future. Do you want to leave without a deal*, the deal we have negotiated with the EU or would you prefer to Remain? We are giving back control of Brexit to you. #thepeopleschoice

  • But of course, we will still have to negotiate a deal with the EU and other people so this is the start of a long journey,
LurpakIsTheOnlyButter · 10/09/2019 23:42

Having read and thought about little else than our current state of affairs, please may I throw a curve ball? A big one?

In a completely dystopian way of thinking. Prior to Brexit, the north/south, rich/poor, working/benefits, British/other etc etc divides have been widening. A fractured society. Erosion of women's rights, social justice, security, healthcare, freedom of speech and religion. And probably more than I can think of.

Then along comes The Referendum.

Like Moses parting the red sea. To divide, to conquer, to force people further apart.

But I wonder if there was an ultimate aim to encourage everyone to ultimately find what unites us and not that which divides us?

BJ is no mastermind, not was DC or TM. But I do have a funny feeling that although things maybe very shit for a while yet - something very fundamental is changing. And maybe that is not a bad thing.

We are a long way from out of the woods, I will continue my stockpile and hope for the best, but does anyone else feel like massive changes are on the horizon? And maybe not all bad.

For those who don't know me, long time follower, sometimes poster, very rarely get into this [to paraphrase red dwarf] star trek crap.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 23:43

They prioritise jobs, so imo reality would lead to SM / CU

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 23:52

Oops, skipped a page - that was my thoughts on what Labour would negotiate
(if it ever got that far)

Prioritizing jobs means VU / SM

With Trump winning with 3-word slogans and Tory / BXP probably "tell them again"
AND simplistic promises

I doubt if most voters would listen to negotiating and then having a PV

We already saw that Tory ad with the complicated Maze for Labour's Brexit, next to the simple one
Expect this to be the theme

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 23:53

CU / SM
(iPad needs to chill)

BigChocFrenzy · 10/09/2019 23:55

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

In a bid to win back the One Nation faction, I hear Johnson has also told several Cabinet ministers that he’s “basically a Brexity Hezza”.

Quite a phrase.

Senior Tory MP retorted:
“How’s he going to be that now that he’s kicked out all the Heseltinites?”

thecatfromjapan · 10/09/2019 23:58

It is really extraordinary that people's attention span has become so incredibly short.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 10/09/2019 23:59

We already saw that Tory ad with the complicated Maze for Labour's Brexit, next to the simple one
Expect this to be the theme

Unfortunately we have a media, especially the state broadcaster complicit in making sure anything Labour brings to the table they feign confusion

thecatfromjapan · 11/09/2019 00:02

Mike Hind
MikeH_PR

I fear Brexit has so infantilised British political discourse that Labour's adult & responsible referendum stance is now untenable. Like children, the media & voters demand a binary proposition. Offering a choice is now presented & perceived as muddled.

8:47 10/9/19

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2019 00:37

Offering more than a 3-word slogan is out of touch mc elite

Apileofballyhoo · 11/09/2019 01:01

Labour #RealDeal
Labour #DealVoteDone
Labour #123DVD
Labour #BridgingCommunities
Labour #BuildingRealBridges
Labour #YourVoteYourVoice
Labour #WeTrustYou
Labour #KeepingItReal
Labour #KeepingSterlingStrong

Apileofballyhoo · 11/09/2019 01:04

I think Keeping Sterling Strong is the most important thing to focus on. I wonder would Bill Clinton give them a pep talk.

pumkinspicetime · 11/09/2019 01:34

Looking at the exchange rate we have been getting for a while I think
Keeping Sterling strong
May have passed as an opportunity.
Maybe
Making Stirling great again?

mathanxiety · 11/09/2019 05:32

Loving the Hercules/Athena trolling of Boris Johnson by Varadkar.

NoWordForFluffy · 11/09/2019 06:15

I don't see how you can offer no deal on a ballot paper when it doesn't really exist. There has to be a deal somewhere along the line, so it's nonsensical. However much it's touted as a realistic choice.

I'm going off the LDs. They appear to be so unwilling to compromise and be adult in all this. And if they let no deal happen because of this intransigence, then they will lose voters permanently, not temporarily. It will kill them stone dead. I actually like the Labour proposal. It gives both sides a chance to be heard, and actually know what Brexit looks like if they want to vote for it.

Brexit IS complicated. It's been proven not to be easy as the Tories have failed to manage it.

redchocolatebutton · 11/09/2019 06:19

'no deal' has been drummed into people by the game show. it's too simple to reflect the situation of the uk.

NoWordForFluffy · 11/09/2019 06:28

I guess that I just don't understand the psyche of people who are clamouring for no deal, given all of the bloody evidence that it will be economic suicide. Have these people never had to make evidence-based decisions in their lives? Or understand the value of expert evidence?

It genuinely baffles me how their minds work and how they tally what they've decided is good in the face of a wealth of evidence to the contrary.

redchocolatebutton · 11/09/2019 06:31

brexit certainly has shown that many people are not very bright.
or don"t give a shit.
or both.

'nach mir die Sintflut'

bellinisurge · 11/09/2019 06:36

I think too many people have been on FB casually spouting hardline views that actually dialling it back and reflecting on compromise options is too much of a personal climb down.

Peregrina · 11/09/2019 06:51

My understanding of the LD position was that they themselves stand for Revoke/Remain, but would push for a PV with the choice of negotiated deal or remain.

Mistigri · 11/09/2019 06:57

Labour's policy might appear "adult and responsible" on the surface (and in ideal circumstances I'd agree with it) but there is nothing adult about fencing sitting and fudge.

There are also some hard questions that need to be answered about how any referendum might be run , by whom, under what rules, and how those rules would be enforced, what majority would be required, and how to ensure that the result is implementable (ie sufficiently clear and legally binding in the event, for eg, of a change of government).

Is Britain right now capable of doing that? I don't think it is.

I don't think this will necessarily be resolved by a general election either - it may take several GEs before we have a stable, workable coalition or majority government.

I think the best option is a cooling off period, which will either require revoke or a very long extension (as has been floated by the French).

fedup21 · 11/09/2019 07:00

I think the best option is a cooling off period, which will either require revoke or a very long extension (as has been floated by the French).

I completely agree.

Someone in change also needs to focus on and make some decisions about something else for a change before our infrastructure collapses-schools, NHS, police, prisons...

lonelyplanetmum · 11/09/2019 07:06

'no deal' has been drummed into people by the game show. it's too simple to reflect the situation of the uk

Yes this.

I'd love a range of Brexiters who see no deal as a glorious end goal to explain what they think it means.

Some disinterested people ( not Brexiters) do seem to think no deal means we've- had - enough- this- is - boring -let's drop Brexit. This is quite a common misunderstanding. My school friend's sister said to my friend that she's sick of the political games,she said it's all boring and she wants people to stop talking about it , to move on.She said let's call it no deal or whatever and not bother and go back to where we were before. She said if it's not broken don't fix it!

So the expression no deal has wide divergence in its interpretation...

Others think it's an easy free trade agreement that will take a week to agree once we've left and will have no downsides. I think others believe it means we have no trade with any European country ever again and that won't have an impact.

NoWordForFluffy · 11/09/2019 07:09

I do agree, Mistigri, but can't see how we get to there right now. Given that the government is still saying that Boris won't comply with Benn, it seems almost impossible to think we'd get to the point of any, let alone a long, extension.

I do know I'm heartily sick of this government (and its predecessors) for putting us into this shocking position though.