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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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Myriade · 03/09/2019 08:10

Re culture wars.
Seeing how close BJ and co are the Bannon and Trump, I’m expecting that BJ has had and has support from the other side of the pound. Which also means that I’m expecting the same dirty tactics used by Trump to be used by BJ.

Myriade · 03/09/2019 08:10

@cherin, I hope today will give you answer you want.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:11

www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/full-list-rebel-tory-mps-brexit

Confirmed rebels: 14

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:15

Gavin Barwell @gavinbarwell
V important thread for MPs who would support a deal but not no deal. I've had same reports re "sham negotiations" from multiple govt sources. If not true (my views were sometimes misreported when I was Chief of Staff) Government should publish its proposals to replace backstop

Beth Rigby @bethrigby
May’s former chief of staff Barwell weighs in behind Hammond et al. Says No 10 to should publish backstop plan to prove its serious about getting a deal. Comes after the current CoS reportedly described talks as ‘sham negotiations’ (via @pmdfoster).

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:17

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Hammond - ‘this is my party , I will protect it from those trying to turn it into an narrow faction’

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:17

Tim Shipman @shippersunbound
Hammond says he would fight in court to be a Tory candidate at the next election

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:18

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
Hammond confirms he’ll support the bill & he says he thinks there will be enough MPs to get the vote over the line today. Says colleagues “incensed over the actions of the past few weeks or so”. ‘Now it’s the time to put the national interest to the threats to us or our careers’

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:19

Jim Pickard@pickardje
Blue on blue:

Philip Hammond attacks Dominic Cummings as an “entryist” who is not even a member of the Conservative party #today

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WaterSheep · 03/09/2019 08:19

Confirmed rebels: 14

How many more do you suspect we might have by the end of the day?

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:20

Justine Greening @justinegreenjng
My letter to @BorisJohnson on why I’ve decided not to stand for @Conservatives at the next election. It’s a privilege to serve as MP for #Putney #Roehampton & #Southfields. I’ll continue to speak up for our community in Parliament & campaign on #socialmobility with @thesmpledge.

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:21

Kevin Schofield@polhomeeditor
Philip Hammond promises Downing Street "the fight of a lifetime" if they try to ban him from standing for the Tories at the next election (he was reselected by his local association last night). #r4today

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:23

Tim Shipman @shippersunbound
Hammond says Johnson “talking nonsense” about having made progress in EU talks

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Motheroffourdragons · 03/09/2019 08:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 08:36

Again, it's vague memory, but wasn't one of the "strengths" of the Tories the fact that it's local parties are pretty (or used to be) autonomous. So you could get "rogue" candidates selected, depending on local issues ?

Pretty certain they used to make a big deal of it when dissing "soviet-style" parties with a central power ?

Or did I dream it ?

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:38

Steven Swinford@steven_swinford
Philip Hammond says Sonia Khan, Javid aide sacked by Dom Cummings, was treated in a ‘shocking’ manner

‘It is extraordinary that Dominic Cummings should have chosen to pick on her. If she went to an employment tribunal I suspect she would win her case’

If you remember she previously worked for Hammond.

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:40

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
In the May era, the ERG Spartans were unbending. Now, under Johnson the anti-No Dealers are displaying just as much backbone. This week a critical battle in the decades old Tory civil war on Europe that could redefine not just the Conservative party but the future of our country

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LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 08:42

Can we confirm that there is no way on earth BoZo will "take us out of the EU by the 31st October"?

For such a stickler for words, he does keep on repeating this...

HesterThrale · 03/09/2019 08:43

A unequivocal, blunt message. Watch till the end.

mobile.twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1168764810365980672

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 08:44

When I say 'will' I mean 'can'

prettybird · 03/09/2019 08:44

Dominic Raab on BBC Breakfast totally avoiding the questions about the specific progress and proposals that have been made re the Irish border (still wittering about checks away from the border) and then straight out lying about the EU being more receptive because they now know that the UK is serious about No Deal.

Louise Minchin trying hard to pin him down - but trying to cover too much and therefore moving on to other topics too quickly. But she is making the point that she is having to keep answer questions because he is not answering them.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:46

Eleni Courea @elenicourea
Spoke to Tory assoc chairmen who were furious about the threat to deselect their MPs:

Robert Craig, Penrith & the Border: “We seem to have this dictatorship emerging out of No 10 that is running roughshod over people that were effectively in the cabinet not long ago at all.”

That be Rory Stewart Country.

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prettybird · 03/09/2019 08:47

LonelyTiredAndLow - I think the notice for any earlier exit had to be the end of the following month - so that's now 31 October anyway. Confused

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:47

Tim Shipman @shippersunbound
I don’t think we’ve ever heard a political interview like Philip Hammond just now. Cold fury. A party in full blown civil war. The future of the country now a winner takes all battle to the end

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OhYouBadBadKitten · 03/09/2019 08:47

Listening to R4 while I work. Farage arguing that Johnson isn't Brexiteey enough and that it has to be WTO (no deal)

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 08:51

Norman Smith @bbcnormans
Seems to me the Boris Johnson strategy cd be about to blow up in his face if MPs back No deal legislation AND block early general election.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
Or refuse to back early GE 'unless and until' the no-deal block is firmly on the statute book.

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