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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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Motheroffourdragons · 03/09/2019 07:10

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 03/09/2019 07:17

Another GC feminist here. I'll never vote Tory.

SistemaAddict · 03/09/2019 07:26

I've woken up feeling rather anxious today waiting to see what happens. I'm finding it incomprehensible that people on the voting thread would actively and willingly vote Tory at a GE. I'm a GC feminist who is politically homeless but how can people willingly vote for a party who have destroyed so much of our country? JC is useless and I wouldn't vote for him either. Lib Dems don't know what a woman is. Neither do the greens. What happened to the Monster Raving Loony Party?

Hoooo · 03/09/2019 07:32

I have 1 dc on their 1st day at college. Very nervous.

Another going away for 4 days for the 1st time with school. Anxious ++

Dh mulling over work promotion so being quite monosyllabic and snappy.

And mum going for an urgent scan tomorrow.

Hahahahahahaha!

^ hysterical laughter.

I am a woman on the edge...

SistemaAddict · 03/09/2019 07:34

Dd2 is going into year 6 today, ds starts reception next week. Autumn is always a time of change I guess.

TheElementsSong · 03/09/2019 07:35

Another GC feminist (and scientist) checking in - I won't vote Tory either.

wheresmymojo · 03/09/2019 07:39

Justine greening has confirmed won't stand for next election because 'the Tory party has become the Brexit party'.

NoWordForFluffy · 03/09/2019 07:39

It's slightly patronising to say that if the Tories embrace a GC viewpoint that they'll attract GC feminist voters. Not many people vote based on one issue; we pick the party which broadly represents our views. Just because the Tories tick the GC box, doesn't mean they'll become an attractive proposition to more GC feminist voters given how abhorrent they are generally!

wheresmymojo · 03/09/2019 07:40

Ps. Also GC feminist.

Have decided having hung out on Tory forums it will be 100x easier to influence the Lib Dem's on TWAW than to influence Tory party back towards centre-right

wheresmymojo · 03/09/2019 07:41

Some GC feminists on MN have said it's their number one priority and they would vote for any party who didn't go with TWAW

wheresmymojo · 03/09/2019 07:42

I suspect it's a minority view though!

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 03/09/2019 07:43

The only party I know disagreeing with TWAW are UKIP.

NoWordForFluffy · 03/09/2019 07:45

Can we hope for a number of floor-crossers today do you think?

WaterSheep · 03/09/2019 07:48

NoWordForFluffy

It's certainly a possibility.

NoWordForFluffy · 03/09/2019 07:49

So, UKIP for them then! I think I'd rather not vote!

Hoooo · 03/09/2019 07:49

True bercows

Just wish it didn't happen all on the same day 😫

I'm avoiding the tv/radio so Westminstenders will be my go to place for news today!

What time does HofC sit?

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 07:53

Remember all the years of Tories condemning Labour deselection attempts and lauding the independence of MPs ?

Now the Brexiter Tories condemn the failure of those attempts and want to do it better

The Tories have learned a valuable lesson from Labour's failure to remove disloyal MPs

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/02/tories-have-learned-valuable-lesson-labours-failure-remove-disloyal/?lisource=LI&lii_medium=li-recommendation-widget

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 07:56

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Justine Greening tells @BBCr4today she is going to stand down at next election as she reckons she can make bigger difference outside - whatever your politics it’s sad that someone widely respected and experienced thinks they can do more outside Parliament to make change

Skeptics will say she was likely to lose seat anyway + has been pushing for another referendum anyway - but she’s someone who knows how to win marginal seat and says Johnson won’t offer ‘sensible choice’ to voters

Also not widely known but she is close to Johnson - they fought against Heathrow together - she says there are millions of people who are genuinely concerned about what he’s doing rather than being dismissed

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RHTawneyonabus · 03/09/2019 07:57

I’m GC, I’ve never voted Tory, never will. My dad alway said ‘never trust a Tory’ which has proved to be true.

I think women’s rights are very important but they are not the only thing I consider when casting my vote.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 07:58

Simon Cox @simonfrcox
Johnson’s key tactic is same as May. Pretend to be thinking & talking while only running down the clock.

Same game of chicken - with a crazier driver.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
This is a shrewd observation. It is.

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OhYouBadBadKitten · 03/09/2019 07:58

2:30 Hooo I'll be relying on you guys for info this afternoon as I'll be at Parliament square telling my head off.

frumpety · 03/09/2019 08:00

I am not sure I have the slightest inkling of what is happening anymore. Fact wise I have :
Johnson has received permission to suspend Parliament -there are various court cases outstanding trying to oppose this ?
Some MP's are going to attempt to pass legislation to insist that Johnson requests an extension as opposed to leaving with no deal on 31st of October.Even if they are successful in the Commons, could it be thwarted by the Lords ? Is there any guarantee the the EU will say yes ?
There could be a GE in October , whoever wins holds the poisoned chalice. Whoever wins gets to be held accountable for all Brexit outcomes, depending on timescale of extension if granted and if there is another GE before actual exit of the EU.
Anything else ?

cherin · 03/09/2019 08:02

The Heathrow fight that he started but didn’t finish because he had a very important totallyinvented meeting clashing on the day of the crucial vote?
It’s going ahead in earnest, planning submission is this fall...

I’ve got results from a biopsy too, today. Flip of a coin day. I resent them all. In general. Whatever.
AFAIK they start at 2:30 at HoC

Anyone has a good link to explain to the uneducated what GC is???

Hoooo · 03/09/2019 08:06

kitten
Thank you!! Wish I could be with you. Can you throw in a few well chosen swear words for me, please?
Xxxxx

Hoooo · 03/09/2019 08:07

cherin I’ll be thinking of you x