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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 23:34

Yes. Strong agree. Really well Sadi, BigChoc.

(Great posts on this issue. I should have said that earlier.)

prettybird · 02/09/2019 23:35

thecatfromjapan Grin

Such a shame. He won't have been able to hear himself think Grin Bless Wink

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 23:35

Superb thinking on Yellowhammer too, BigChoc.

Carpediem1 · 02/09/2019 23:39

Anyone see John Curtis's interview on BBC News 24 just now? Laying out v clearly how far behind Labour are in the polls behging JC not to fall for the elephant trap and therefore how risky voting for a GE would be for Labour. BBC still talking about a GE on 14 October as if there was no need for 2/3 Parliament to vote for it.

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 23:46

cat thank you so much for that Twitter sound link. Nice bit of positivity to hear the protest. Good people doing good things.

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 23:52

Ooh! Has everyone seen this?

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
Icantreachthepretzels · 02/09/2019 23:54

Wow cat the noise level on that reengineered clip was actually frightening - Boris must have been shitting himself! It was awesome. Well done to everyone there - I've never wished I lived in London so much.

AutumnCrow · 02/09/2019 23:56

I was talking to DS tonight about the role of local constituency parties. Very powerful. If enough of them tell Johnson to go fuck himself, he might be looking sideways at Cummings as well as the angry mobs.

Icantreachthepretzels · 03/09/2019 00:00

Good for Runnymede and Weybridge. isn't Runnymede where they signed the Magna Carta? Home of everything the English political and legal system is based on, not going to be bullied and pushed around by the whims of a dictator. Good for them - even if they are tories.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 00:11

Re Johnson looking weak tonight.

Think Trump again.

Trump wanted the visual to his supporters that he was being bullied by the nasty liberals but he stood firm in the face of it. He was the victim and underdog.

In this there is always what one side is seeing which is totally different to what the other picks up on.

In a people v the elite narrative, Johnson looking 'rattled' and afraid isn't a bad thing.

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boatyardblues · 03/09/2019 00:11

Interesting. At this rate Boris will have alienated every single adult in the country by Friday. I am waiting to see if he disappears in a puff of smoke like a wizard (only to reappear in some dodgy tax haven under an assumed name with a decent haircut to disguise himself). As someone else said upthread, it doesn’t look being PM was half as much of a jolly as he was expecting.

SwedishEdith · 03/09/2019 00:15

Lewis Goodall
@lewis_goodall

Monday is an unusual day by international standards to hold elections, the major Western examples are Canada 🇨🇦 and Norway 🇳🇴. Maybe there’s a Brexiter message in there, somewhere.

Adam Wagner
@AdamWagner1

Religious Jews would be unable to vote in this election as it will be on the first day of the festival of Sukkot.

No writing allowed on the first day of Sukkot so can’t vote. No exceptions if you’re Orthodox and observant. Would also apply on 15th. Nb Labour lost narrowly in the three significantly Jewish London constituencies in 2017

Lifebi · 03/09/2019 00:18

If the vote blocking No Deal until 31 Jan is passed tomorrow and Boris calls an election for 14 Oct but doesn't get the 2/3 required then we're back to stalemate so why would the opposition 'alliance' call a GE after the 31st Oct?
Can they not tell Boris to actually start negotiating with the EU or else offer a referendum to rescind article 50?

woman19 · 03/09/2019 00:30

Quite agree with your post cat. Rights have been won at a high cost, and few who enjoy them realise it, or educate themselves about how they were won. Even demonstrations then used to take nerves of steel to take part in.

Johnson looked weak because he is. Bullies are.

The whole world heard 'Stop the Coup' tonight. Most thoughtful non britons know a coup when they see one.

The protestors are the very best of us, and give courage to people like Hammond's LCP to re select him.

Good work.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 00:38

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
EXC: Inside Brexit War Cabinet:

  • Dominic Cummings described EU negotiation as "a sham" in internal strategy meetings, per two highly placed sources.
  • AG Cox warned Johnson it was "complete fantasy" to think EU would bin backstop 1/thread

At the heart of this story is the question as to whether:

a) the Johnson administration is sincere about getting a new deal with the EU

b) if they seriously trying, having not yet presented any substantive proposals /2

So here's what I know after weeks of intensive reporting.

Let's start at the beginning. July 29 First meeting of Brexit War Cabinet - or EU 'Exit Strategy', or XS cmme in Downing Street, four days after Johnson's 'bin the backstop' statement to commons. /3

In that meeting Sherpa David Frost made presentation entitled “Approach to engagement with the EU on renegotiation” - in which the repeated idea was to "run down the clock". That was adopted as 'formal policy'. /4

It was difficult to see what the actual detail of a new deal would be - since @BorisJohnson had alread ruled out a) time-limit b) exit clause as insufficient.

So how did he know that wasn't a serious renegotation gambit? Well because the Attorney General told him! /5

That happened on Aug 1, at meeting of XS to discuss implications of July 29 meeting.

Cox told Johnson it was "complete fantasy" that EU would drop backstop - and that taking that route would lead to "path to no deal" /6

At the same time, Whitehall could see that there was - is - no serious preparation for a negotiated deal.

Indeed per two highly placed sources Cummings described the EU negotiation process as a "sham".

Downing Street, on behalf of Mr Cummings says this is a "categoric lie" /7

Well. All I can say is that I 'stand by my reporting' - I will never reveal sources, but I'd stake the detail and accuracy of all of the above and three years of consistent reporting on #Brexit on the double-sourcing of this.

Are there two 'fantasists' out there? /8

Of course, I recall that I once wrote a story saying that Olly Robbins was discreetly sounding out Brussels on a 'no deal' extension - that was a categoric lie too - until it wasn't.

So it's 'he said, she said'. I'll leave regular readers to make judgements. /9

If you want a sense of that reporting history (I've done pretty much bugger all else) then you can read this long read in @prospect_uk
magazine.

t.co/7QzCg5FEBf

But lets get back to substance.... /10

...because Johnson says the chances of a deal are 'rising'

@michaelgove says the EU is "shifting"...

Both plead for more time for their 'deal' strategy to work. And yet there is not substance to the 'plan' - other than 'run down the clock'. /11

You might have heard some talk about "sectoral deals' or 'aligning SPS' or legal texts...but talk to those responsible for delivering "operable realities" (a posh word for stuff that people and businesses can actually use) and it junk. /11

The SPS plan is only on DUP agreement (no way) and anyway only fixes 30 per cent of border issues.

The legal text is, per source, the backstop with the meaninful clauses crossed out.

NOTHING has been put on table./12

But what about those talks which Frost is going to attend in Brussels on Wednesday..well, they discussed the 'plan' for those at the XS meeting last week.

Frost reminded the 'six' of the plan to run down the clock and said the talks were for "domestic handling reasons". /13

Now, it seems clear that there might be divisions between Cummings and Johnson about what is possible, about the "abundant techincal fixes" that Mr Johnson believes in - but there is no sign of any of them.

This might be why, at the same meeting.../14

It was agreed to Frost should try to open a 'no deal mitigation' track to run in parallel with the supposed 'deal negotiation'

They will, per EU sources, get the same answer they did when they tried this in August. "No".

As @MichelBarnier said, 'no mini-deals' /15

Now, ultimately, no one can completely rule out the Trumpian 'reverse-ferret'...where Johnson settles for something cosmetic, declares it a "tremendous success" and then dares Parliament not to vote for it.

But to be clear, there is no evidence of that /16

MPs pondering the sincerity of ministers promises that a 'deal is in the wind' should ask themselves, 'what deal?' What does it look like? Where are the texts and the documents?

Because Whitehall is flat out drafting 'mini deals' they 'hope' the EU will accept /17

I understand that internally Cummings and his camp actually argue that the Oct 17 #EUCO should be used not to force a deal, but to force the EU to agree to mini-deals to soften a 'no deal'. /18

Either the plan is to get a deal - unlikely, since even AG Cox says the current abolish the backstop plan is "complete fantasy"....OR it's to give the impression of wanting a deal while the clock runs down. /19

Ultimately everyone has to decide for themselves, but they should do so on basis of available evidence, not warm words or wishful thinking.... MPs must decide too. Big week. 20/ENDS

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 00:40

Christopher Hope@christopherhope
EXCLUSIVE Conservative donors plan to tip millions into 106 target seats to win a snap election for Boris Johnson t.co/D04Ae19aWY via @Telegraph

Michael Crick @michaellcrick
Millions? Into 106 target seats? That sounds like a flagrant breach of law on constituency election expenses, which limits spending in a campaign to roughly £15,000 per seat. Or perhaps it’s only about £1.6 million they plan to spend, which would be legal if evenly distributed,

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woman19 · 03/09/2019 01:06

Another of Farage and Johnson's violent Leave Means Leave thugs arrested. Again.
Smile
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/james-goddard-arrest-labour-rally-salford-jeremy-corbyn-car-protest-a9089356.html

He was a familiar and highly unpleasant presence outside the HOC for months last year, until he was banned from certain areas of London, for what he did to Anna Soubry.

news.sky.com/story/man-who-harassed-mp-anna-soubry-given-suspended-sentence-11768319

Attention must be paid.

Hazardtired · 03/09/2019 02:00

Re GC feminists receiving criticisms from people who grew up taking for granted having protections from routine sexual harrassment.

Sadly those protections only realistically exist when there's a HR department and/or union.

tobee · 03/09/2019 02:21

Why isn't someone, not Corbyn, but someone strong and credible saying "if Johnson is seriously serious that he can still get a deal, is close to a deal, still insisting on his entirely self imposed, arbitrary deadline of October 31st?" As opposed to ask for an extension from the EU. Because it's obvious he's lying again about this. A new deal is not near or possible, especially involving dropping back stop.

In fact, why is no TV journalist asking this question?

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 04:46

Haven't managed to see the speech - dd ill and asleep beside me atm. I did however watch it on mute...and he really looks like Hitler, i'm not getting the 'rattled' bit which I can only assume is vocal hesitation?

Can't help feeling all of this is to run the £ completely flat for 'new investment' and profit somehow later (clearly not if we no deal!). Just the pointlessness of that speech when it was clear what the world would see...suspicious.

Also agreed Red that he wants to look bullied to some extent - but being ex Bullingdon I'm not convinced he can act that very well. Weirdly compatibly a leaver friend has posted about how unfair remainers are to Leavers being hard of thinking...they are off "we won get over it" and goading and onto "you've hewt my fweelings"

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 05:01

Am also intrigued by the idea our PM could clearly break the law and have Parliamentary Privilege (presumably why he doesn't expect any arrest?). Not so worried about the Queen having no power as our police and M15!

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 05:04

J Crace being amusing re speech here Smile

Hoooo · 03/09/2019 06:36

Very odd speech last night wasn't it?

He seems very ill at ease.

Can't imagine why...

Promising unicorns and rainbows to morons who hark back to a war they were not part of and don't remember.

(If I hear/see 1 more twat saying we can grow our own food - in winter - I'll fucking scream!)

The EU will NOT blink. The backstop is there to stay in the WA. Because the EU respects international peace treaties. And won't throw a member state under a bus.

The is no new plan for NI. Border checks - just not at the border? Come ON!

Farage been very quiet - apart from an odd swipe at the RF.

I shall be spending today in bed and swearing a lot I think.

Sostenueto · 03/09/2019 06:45

On radio this morning John McDonnell was asked about GE and was said to say ' yes but on our terms....' So labour could put conditions on agreeing a GE for instance taking no deal off the table because they do not trust Boris.

I can see labour abstaining and traping Boris or am I just hoping too much?

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 06:59

The narrative is going to be ramped up that Brexit is somehow everyones job to solve - it's trying to blame your opponents for your own failure.

That should be one tactic Labour can rebut, Corbyn or not. All of this. ALL of this mess is a Tory mess.

Not quite sure why Labour spokespeople haven't been told to use the phrase "Tory Brexit" whenever the word comes up in an interview ...

Excuse me, can I ask you about Brexit ?
You mean, the Tory Brexit ? Pleased to talk.

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