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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:38

Cwenthryth there is anther possibility:

the bill passes and then Bj does NOT get the necessary ⅔ majority to call a GE

In that case, does he obey the law ? Hmm

prettybird · 02/09/2019 19:39

Interesting that Blair, in an interview with Sky's Sam Coats, admits he's struggling to give a definitive Yes to whether he'd vote Labour as he says he'd have to vote whichever was the best way to stop No Deal Shock

No wonder Labour is struggling with disseminating its message to the public (which to be fair on Blair not something that I normally say Wink is what he admits: the message is not clear from Labour Sad)

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 19:39

Faisal Islam@faisalislam
“Number 10 has been polling “culture war” issues, such as transgender rights, to see whether they can be weaponised against Labour in northern working-class constituencies” says the Times’ ⁦*@RSylvesterTimes*⁩

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/e654014e-cd99-11e9-bfe0-b5ac4ce6ca95
Boris Johnson’s luck might be about to run out

Didn't see that coming a mile off...

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sovielverloren · 02/09/2019 19:40

I've never uploaded an image before so....fingers crossed. This was the crowd moving off Parliament Square towards Downing Street at 5.47pm. I diverted on my walk back to the station to take a look but wasn't able to stay and join them, but well done! And good to read reports of the noise they were making (just got in and sorted tea etc, so apologies for delay which probably makes this out of date already, the pace we live in)

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 19:41

BCF - I guess BJ doesn’t see that as a likely scenario, although obv it is theoretically possible.

WaterSheep · 02/09/2019 19:41

Thank you for sharing sovielverloren

woman19 · 02/09/2019 19:42

Thank you Soviel absolute heroes those folks.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:43

"failing to take his party with him" ?

I thought he was taking the 70%+ Tories who want No Deal and was betting that the Tory Remainers fear Corbyn more than No Deal

  • we've seen MN Tory Remainers say that, e.g. @Xenia < waves >

Does the Times mean he is losing support of a lot more MPs ?
I can't read behind the paywall

tobee · 02/09/2019 19:44

Or copy Cameron and walk away from No 10 whistling

Yes please BCF!!!

tobee · 02/09/2019 19:44

Oh I thought I finally learned how to copy & paste properly 😔

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:46

Cwenthryth Failing to get the ⅔ majority is quite likely.
Maybe 50:50, depending on who last speaks to Corbyn

Benn seems to think he has sufficient votes for the bill - we'll see if he is eight

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:46

eight right !

tobee · 02/09/2019 19:48

I thought N. Sturgeon said "general election - bring it on!" Or similar?

woman19 · 02/09/2019 19:53

Number 10 has been polling “culture war” issues
I'll bet they have.

Thanks BCF we shall see tomorrow.

@PickardJE
Rebels alliance set to hold historic meeting in Corbyn’s office tomorrow:

Am told attendees will include Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell, Nick Brown, Keir Starmer, Valerie Vaz, Ian Blackford, Liz Saville Roberts, Jo Swinson, Anna Soubry, Caroline Lucas

'Rebel Alliance' sounds like a sort of 1970s cologne to me. Grin

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 19:54

BCF - by saying “I guess BJ doesn’t see” I am theorising as to his thought process (and therefore confidence in saying he would never seek extension etc) not stating any personal opinion or fact about the likelihood of anything Smile

AutumnCrow · 02/09/2019 19:55

Anyone got a share token for that Times article please?

woman19 · 02/09/2019 19:59

@joannaccherry
Delighted to advise I have confirmation that #Scotland’s Lord Advocate will seek leave to intervene on behalf of @scotgov to support #Cherrycase against prorogation but not in such a way as to delay full hearing on merits tomorrow @JolyonMaugham #Brexit

Love that Joanna Cherry.

boatyardblues · 02/09/2019 20:00

This exchange under the Times article that Red linked to made me laugh.

Rebel Alliance screams Star Wars franchise to me.

boatyardblues · 02/09/2019 20:01

Balls! Let’s try again.

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
TheCaddyisaBaddie · 02/09/2019 20:03

Bojo only had a small majority at the last election, around 5000 I think.

Emilyontmoor · 02/09/2019 20:13

Rebel Alliance' sounds like a sort of 1970s cologne to me.

It was only a matter of time before someone got the more obvious 1970s reference

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
dontcallmelen · 02/09/2019 20:14

Very frustrating debate on channel four at the moment, anything that resembles facts is mainly being shouted down by some very very committed Brexiteers.

nothingwittyhere · 02/09/2019 20:16

I think this is the share token for Rachel Sylvester's article, AutumnCrow
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-luck-might-be-about-to-run-out-xwg9plxv3?shareToken=ca97fce7ba94bf1b456c84b3f1a4f084

WaterSheep · 02/09/2019 20:16

Very frustrating debate on channel four at the moment

Agreed. More dodging of questions, and pointless shouting about how it's what the majority voted for.

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 20:19

Sebastian Payne @SebastianePayne
Senior No.10 officials are delighted at the contents of the Hammond bill to stop no deal:

“Their bill is fantastic, it’s total surrender. Corbyn will have to defend that for whole [election] campaign. He’s fucked.”

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