Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
woman19 · 02/09/2019 19:18

Channel 4 are going with the view that he just announced he'd act above the law.

Which he did.

GeistohneGrenzen · 02/09/2019 19:20

pmk

DarlingNikita · 02/09/2019 19:22

Channel 4 are going with the view that he just announced he'd act above the law.

What does that mean?

Apologies, I need spoon-feeding this stuff now. There's just too much and too many ridiculous things happening.

Peregrina · 02/09/2019 19:23

DId he really plan that particular speech - more like he got cold feet and made up some waffle at the last moment.

This is one of his tricks - he pretends not to be prepared and scribbles down some notes, so it looks as though he's making an off the cuff speech. Jeremy Vine happened to see him do it and the first time he was fooled, the second time he heard the same 'impromtu' speech, he wasn't.

fedup21 · 02/09/2019 19:24

Wow that chart is impressive!

Revoke is greyed out-I presume that’s totally off the table then??

GE looking most likely.

Random18 · 02/09/2019 19:24

I did wonder about the words he said.

At no point did he say he would call an election (although it's what people are assuming).

But could it be that he will refuse to recognise the law.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:25

The Anti No Deal bill looked to be as good as it could be

Requiring BJ, if there is no deal by mid-Oct to write to EUCO, using the bill's template
Reduces his capacity to make a bogus request

However, always tricky to make watertight rules to constran crooks

Especially when it is the crooks in charge of everything

woman19 · 02/09/2019 19:27

Darling 'Under no circumstances would he seek an extension.' If the vote goes against him tomorrow he'll ignore it. That would be illegal, as far as I can see.

woman19 · 02/09/2019 19:28

Thanks BCF and others, let us see......

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:28

Sam Coates Sky@SamCoatesSky

Gvt Source - Boris Johnson does not want an election but will tomorrow table a motion under the fixed term parliaments act

which will be triggered if the rebels win the vote, starting a process towards a potential general election
< only if Corbyn agrees and even then, maybe enough Labour MPs won't vote in favout >

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 19:29

David Allen Green@davidallengreen
Boris.
Johnson.
Cannot.
Call.
A.
General.
Election.

Not.
His.
Decision.

Requires.
At.
Least.
One.
Commons.
Vote.

Needs.
MPs.
Approval.

This.
Is.
Basic.
Constitutional.
Literacy.

Political.
Pundits.
Especially.
At.
The.
BBC.
Please.
Note.

Thank.
You.

OP posts:
cherin · 02/09/2019 19:29

I’m also super confused, I just know that I’m supposed to walk past Westminster tomorrow at 2pm and I don’t know if I need to find a life vest, because things seem to get very heated

So
For an election to be called on October the 14th he needs to have a voc by next Monday at the latest, or persuade 2/3 of the HoC to go for it. He hasn’t got the numbers for the 2/3, right?
If the motion tomorrow passes, it’ll need to go through HoC and HoL at breakneck speed by Friday. And the queen needs to give assent? When was the proroguing officially starting?

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 19:29

Channel 4 are going with the view that he just announced he'd act above the law.

What does that mean?

BJ said that under no circumstances would be ask the EU for an extension. Hilary Benn & friends are tabling legislation which, if passed this week, would require BJ to do just that if it gets to a certain date and we have no deal agreed.

So BJ has effectively said that in that situation, he would break the law.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:29

If the Opposition & rebels win the vote, they should vote down the GE and avoid the trap

DarlingNikita · 02/09/2019 19:30

Thank you, woman and Cwenthryth.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/09/2019 19:31

Dilyn is the welsh word for follow

howabout · 02/09/2019 19:31

Channel 4 "reaching"

If Parliament passes Benn Bill then Boris calls an election rather than adopting it. In any event the current Parliament cannot bind the hands of a future Parliament post GE. Therefore if Hilary and co represent UK voters they win a GE and get their way. If Boris and co win then the Bill dies.

Re Amber Rudd. She would likely be SAFE in a GE hence why she has swung behind Boris. She only lost most of her maj in 2017 because UKIP voters thought they could get Brexit and Labour. They will either stay home / vote Brexit Party or vote Tory given current Labour position. Lots like her - this was TM's miscalculation in 2017 and JC's genius.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:31

Or copy Cameron and walk away from No 10 whistling

I'll just put it out there:
The job is not nearly such a spiffing wheeze as he thought

dontcallmelen · 02/09/2019 19:32

PMK, I have been following these threads for a long time & I did post a bit a few months ago, but I had very little to add & am no where near as informed as Red or many of the other excellent posters.
I have been utterly horrified at the shenanigans of Blowjob & his mates over the last few weeks I cannot articulate properly my utter despair at the seriousness of what has happened recently.

woman19 · 02/09/2019 19:33

Any one hearing anything about numbers for tomorrow?

howabout · 02/09/2019 19:34

Struggling to see how a Tory rebel could vote against Boris in one breath and then refuse a GE in the next. Also don't see SNP or DUP or Dennis Skinner and a few more refusing a GE.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:34

If the bill passes, MPs should NOT then vote to let BJ avoid obeying

That would also be a pointless waste of those rebels who voted for the bill and sacrificed their careers.

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 19:34

So BJ has effectively said that in that situation, he would break the law.
(Yes, quoting myself) apart from, I guess, BJ doesn’t see that situation happening. Either the bill will fail, or a GE will be called and he’ll either have a fresh mandate for no-extension, or it won’t be his problem anyway .

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:36

howabout I'm struggling to understand why a Lexiter keeps so desperately defending the actions of a hard right Tory government

Not just today, but for the last couple of years.

So we are indeed all in strange times

the rebels are finished if they vote for the bill;
if they then vote for a GE then they just pissed away their careers for nothing

woman19 · 02/09/2019 19:37

he would break the law
They've said it twice now. Believe them. Their proposed GE campaign is premised on breaking the law: so called 'people' against the law makers.