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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/09/2019 18:45

The dog is called Dilyn

Apparently it means "loyalty"

The dog should really be called "Squirrel"

Peregrina · 02/09/2019 18:45

Oh missed that. I see the dog has a name.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 18:46

No, afaik it hasn't been published yet, woman
I don't see its title on the HoC calendar yet either- it all say "no business scheduled"

Grinchly · 02/09/2019 18:48

Larry has plans.
Dog has no chance.Grin
And I say this as a dog and cat lover.

woman19 · 02/09/2019 18:51

OK bigchoc hope the bill is cummingproof. Has he ever had a grown up job?

"Those who broke the law before in charge again.
Police missing etc"

We really are now, the sort of country, that people used to raise money for, and send experts and NGOs in to try to help.

No plebisiscite is trustworthy here atm.

If they knocked 5m off electoral roll last time, I wonder how many is planned for this time.

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 18:52

I'd love to know what these supposed new alternatives were that had been put on the table. Didn't the EU categorically state they had not had any new alternatives presented to them?

The alternatives are always kept secret so that nobody can say they won't work, but the Cons can continue to say they exist. Their main function is so that the Cons can give Leavers another reason to Be-Leave the EU are unreasonable.

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 02/09/2019 18:53

Hillary Benn has published a "PM must request extension" bill on his Twitter. Sorry, I don't know how to do photos on my ipad. I don't understand enough to know whether it is a good or bad bill though.

DarkAtEndOfUK · 02/09/2019 18:53

No election, eh?

In the Blair and Cameron years, my dh and I worked out that whenever a politician said something would not happen or they didn't want it to happen - it would happen within the week. Such as 'So-and-so categorically does not need to resign over this, I stand by them' - two days and they were gone. Worked every time.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 18:55

Ah, just found it tweeted by Benn, woman

Bill to stop No Deal

Hilary Benn@hilarybennmp

1/8 The European Union (Withdrawal) (No. 6) Bill 2019

2/8 The purpose of the Bill is to ensure that the UK does not leave the European Union on the 31 October without an agreement, unless Parliaments consents.

3/8 The Bill gives the Government time either to reach a new agreement with the European Union at the European Council meeting next month or to seek Parliament’s specific consent to leave the EU without a deal.

4/8 If neither of these two conditions have been met, however, by 19th October
– ie the day after the European Council meeting concludes –
then the Prime Minister must send a letter to the President of the European Council requesting an Article 50 extension until 31 January 2020.

5/8 The form of the letter is set out in a schedule to the Bill.

If the European Council agrees to an extension to the 31 January 2020, then the Prime Minister must immediately accept that extension.

6/8 If the European Council proposes an extension to a different date then the Prime Minister must accept that extension within two days, unless the House of Commons rejects it.

7/8 The Bill has cross-party support from MPs who believe that the consequences of No Deal for the economy and the country would be highly damaging.

No Deal is not in the national interest.

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
woman19 · 02/09/2019 18:55

Thanks Cordelia
When did Blair do this Dark?

prettybird · 02/09/2019 18:55

Whatever might have been leaked about the rebels'/the Opposition's plans, I can almost guarantee that it will not be complete and/or that there will be elephant traps set for BlowJob (or Cummings) to fall into.

They need to be must be that Machiavellian - that's the level that UK Politics has fallen to Sad

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 18:55

How can an election be called under FTPA if he needs 75% support for one

Repeal of the FTPA takes a simple majority.

There is also a shortage of them atm.

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SistemaAddict · 02/09/2019 18:57

My brain hurts from trying to figure out all the under currents atm. DCs and I just had a gorgeous meal at our local Italian before school starts back tomorrow. I'm hoping the neighbour's cat will come in for a cuddle seeing as I don't have my own. He's adorable and purrs as soon as he sees us. Very vocal too. He's a Bengal mix I believe. Beautiful boy.

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 18:57

Theo Usherwood @theousherwood
The problem with the PM's narrative tonight - that he doesn't want an election but rebellious MPs could force him to call one - is it gives impression he's not in control of the country's destiny.

So Theresa May c. 2019 to be buffeted from pillar to post by outside forces.

The problem with the PM's narrative tonight - that he doesn't want an election but rebellious MPs could force him to call one - is it gives impression he's not in control of the country's destiny.

So Theresa May c. 2019 to be buffeted from pillar to post by outside forces.

A strong and stable moment?

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Halfeatentoast · 02/09/2019 18:58

*DId he really plan that particular speech - more like he got cold feet and made up some waffle at the last moment

I think this is absolutely right.*

Like I say, The thick of It, episode 1

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 18:58

BJ needs either a simple majority to repeal the FTPA, which I don't think he has - those same Tories rebels -
or he needs a â…” majority to call a GE

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 02/09/2019 19:00

Does FTPA give the PM the choice of date for any resulting election? If yes, surely labour should (if even remotely sane) vote against a GE because Boris would surely just pick 1st Nov as the date.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:03

How the govt tightens its grip .... coming to your part of UK soon :

Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission 'severely restricted' by budget cuts

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/northern-ireland-human-rights-commission-severely-restricted-by-budget-cuts-38458034.html

Speaking to the BBC, the NIHRC's chief commissioner Les Allamby said the organisation has had to deal with eight annual budget cuts.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:05

Yes he chooses the date of the GE

flouncyfanny · 02/09/2019 19:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

flouncyfanny · 02/09/2019 19:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

fedup21 · 02/09/2019 19:13

I’m so confused by what’s going on!

Are there any flowcharts of possibilities now or are things in such unchartered waters that such a flow chart is impossible to create??

CrunchyCarrot · 02/09/2019 19:16

This chart fedup21 by Jon Worth... be warned it is huge!

jonworth.eu/brexit-what-next/

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 19:17

jonworth.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Brexit-What-Next-13.png

There you go, fedup. It was up thread.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 19:17

Sam Coates Sky@SamCoatesSky

Cabinet ministers indicating they think an election likely now.

The first two Tory MPs I saw were horrified at the prospect - the narrowing of the Tory coalition and the prospect of going to the country against that backdrop

I presume this is effectively a motion requiring 2/3 of MPs to support an election.

So election likely but not guaranteed if rebels win tomorrow