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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 17:14

I sat on the fence for a very long time judgejudy making my mind up after digesting info from both sides. It took a while hence not voting in the referendum. Why you are deciding the fate of a complete country its best that you take the time to cone to a fully informed opinion before you vote away other peoples jobs, livelyhoods and future.

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 17:15

I have better things to do than listen to your collective moaning, I hope you will find it within yourselves to be a little positive, have a little more confidence going forward. At some point you will look back on all the drama and fuss you are creating, and feel embarrassed no doubt.

Songsofexperience · 02/09/2019 17:18

Hopefully. God I really hope it's all wonderful in the end.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 17:18

Not seen any vile nastiness - unless calling out someone for lack of citations is nasty? Grin but feel free to feel put upon for being asked to provide back up for baseless assertions Wink

And, personally speaking, I'm not broken - this clusterfuck is the best thing to accelerate something that I would like to see happen Grin However, because I am a nice person, I'd rather be patient and that it happened more slowly than quickly at the expensive of the poorest and most vulnerable in England.

PostNotInHaste · 02/09/2019 17:18

Yes I agree with a fair amount of that JudgeJudy. We were explaining to teenage DS on a long drive recently about how easily people are divided into groups eg the Blue eyes- brown eyes exercise and how even when people know something is an experiment, if given a label they adapt behaviour in line with that label eg. The Zimbardo (think it was him) prison guard experiment which had to be halted.

We’ve all basically been split into two groups and our behaviour manipulated to a large extent until most people have become further and further entrenched.

Halfeatentoast · 02/09/2019 17:19

Me too ohlook

Icantreachthepretzels · 02/09/2019 17:20

Why does Judge Judy write as if they are both in Ireland and the UK?

Maybe she lives in one of those houses along the border -where the kitchen's in Norn Irn and the living room is in the ROI... she's running between her rooms as she posts.

or she's in Russia/murica

PostNotInHaste · 02/09/2019 17:20

For clarity that was not really post of 17.15.

Hoooo · 02/09/2019 17:22

Confident?

Ok.

If you can find me my meds (which are now oos everywhere)...
If you can guarantee my mum and sisters meds (which keep them alive) won't suddenly be unavailable...
If you can guarantee my mum will bd able to get chemo or radiotherapy should she need it...
If you can guarantee I can get my husband and sons inhalers...
then I might be more confident about a disastrous no deal Brexit.

Darn those pesky expert economists, hauliers, bankers, business leaders with their dire warnings, eh?

I'm now going to go back to seeing if I can get my meds from overseas....

NoWordForFluffy · 02/09/2019 17:22

No, no, no...I'm Red!

I did moot on the last (or maybe 1 or 2 before that!) thread whether, if BoJo tried to invoke the FTPA and have a vote on a GE whether an amendment would be tacked on meaning an extension has to be requested before the GE can be put into place. I see that versions of this are now being put forward by official commentators.

Even if JC whips for a GE, his MPs may not want to throw the country into a trap and go along with it.

Interesting times are definitely afoot!

Good to see we've a leaver on board who's clearly not been following what's been going on with the total lack of no deal prep by the U.K. Grin

Songsofexperience · 02/09/2019 17:22

JRM called a concerned neurologist 'shameful' for not parroting the no deal propaganda:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/02/jacob-rees-mogg-doctor-shameful-no-deal-drug-concerns

Who is 'shameful' (Or rather shameless) here?

OublietteBravo · 02/09/2019 17:25

@JudgeJudyismyinspiration
A PV can not take place before the GE Just there is simply no time to do one, there is zero chance of that. No one else is talking about that anymore, there is no time.

I think you’ll find that the current situation under the FTPA is that the next general election is scheduled for 2022. Plenty of time for a PV to happen before then and the EU would probably give us another extension to A50 in order to hold a PV.

GaspodeWonderCat · 02/09/2019 17:26

www.politico.eu/article/experts-propose-alternative-to-brexit-backstop-no-deal-uk-eu-ireland/ @JudgeJudyismyinspiration link

'To avoid customs checks at the border, the proposal envisages a network of "EU Trade Centres" in the U.K. and Ireland, but away from the border, in which "all goods destined for the EU or the U.K. respectively via Northern Ireland would be processed, including payment of duties and the like, before they actually left British or Irish territory.' So border checks but not at the border (that will work well then - not)

Asked whether the plan had been shared with EU officials or the U.K. government, the group declined to reveal the content of any discussions but said the plan has garnered "considerable interest." Once everyone had finished laughing

Meanwhile www.politico.eu/article/barnier-no-alternative-to-backstop-until-withdrawal-deal-ratified/ 'The European Union will not discuss alternative arrangements regarding the Irish border until the U.K. parliament ratifies the Withdrawal Agreement, Michel Barnier has said.'

PostNotInHaste · 02/09/2019 17:26

What time are we expecting developments this evening ?

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 17:27

Maybe she lives in one of those houses along the border -where the kitchen's in Norn Irn and the living room is in the ROI... she's running between her rooms as she posts. The roaming charges will be a curse once Brexit happens. Hope the money is good.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/09/2019 17:29

Oh yeah, what I meant to say but was rudely interrupted by my train arriving, is that if there is a GE, then at least every party is going to be putting their Brexit plan in black and white for all voters to see.

It should make it easy (easier) for leavers and remainers alike to decide who to vote for on that issue. It's going to be hard for many to even consider other policies, I'd imagine, as Brexit really is the hot potato, isn't it. It's a shame that other issues may end up sidelined (though I'll be keeping a close eye on NHS plans too).

woman19 · 02/09/2019 17:31

The Dr he was talking to had actually had to write Yellow hammer docs and had the temerity to ask what was an acceptable mortality rate for the crash out song?

He called in to Ring Rees-Mogg to ask what level of patient mortality rate he would be happy with if the UK leaves the EU without an agreement

Dr Nicol hit back: "Can I remind you I wrote the plans of mitigation

But Mr Rees-Mogg told him: "Well you didn't write very good plans if you hadn't worked out how to mitigate, had you

It's fortunate they are being written by other people now who are serious about mitigating rather than Remoaners

lbc.co.uk/radio/special-shows/ring-rees-mogg/jacob-rees-mogg-rows-with-doctor-no-deal-brexit/

nice.

woman19 · 02/09/2019 17:32

I'm red.

Emilyontmoor · 02/09/2019 17:32

JudgeJudy Where in that source does it say that the EU has expressed any opinion on the proposal, or indeed Downing Street? Indeed it says

Asked whether the plan had been shared with EU officials or the U.K. government, the group declined to reveal the content of any discussions but said the plan has garnered "considerable interest."

It is just one more idea floating about untested by any encounter with reality.....

Hoooo · 02/09/2019 17:33

I am red and so are my husband and children

TokyoSushi · 02/09/2019 17:33

Statement to the nation from the PM, 6pm 🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨🚨

PostNotInHaste · 02/09/2019 17:34

Thank you TokyoSushi

TokyoSushi · 02/09/2019 17:35

I may not know the intricacies, but I'm good at the public service announcements 😂

TheMShip · 02/09/2019 17:35

Gosh I wish I were red.

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 17:37

.

Westminstenders: It's a trap!