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Brexit

Westminstenders: Game On?

975 replies

RedToothBrush · 29/08/2019 21:35

Johnson has had prorogation approved by the Queen.

There has been widespread outrage and horror both in the UK and in Europe. Johnson has ripped up the principle of Liberal democracy even if constitutionally what he has done is legal. In shredding convention and the 'gentlemans agreement' of understanding we teeter on the edge of democratic collapse.

Talk is tha Dominic Cummings is persuing a game theory principle of deliberately putting us on collision course with the EU. The idea being that they will blink first because the alternative of what will happen is just too awful for them to allow. The idea is to force others to make the moves whilst Johnson appears principled and strong, even without a proper strategy and plan for a deal.

And there is the rub. Despite all the Talk of no deal, at some point a deal MUST be made, regardless of whether its before or after 31st October. There is no sense of what that could be and how it could be done. And then there's the prospect of a US deal which suffers from the same lack of tangibility.

All there is, is how things look for a General Election. Nothing else.

Johnson is pitching for an election with no sense of what's needed for Brexit - including the legislation needed for no deal. Not to forget that Cummings, strategist that he is, apparently isn't here for the long haul, only being contracted until 31st October, when he goes for surgery he postponed to take on this job.

So what's the plan for Johnson Post Cummings? Or is he going to do even more 'winging it'.

Meanwhile there's an awful lot of moderate Tory MPs getting very nervous and already failing to stick to the Cummings script.

Johnson, until there is an election is going to firmly blow hot and cool, trying to play to the hopes and fears of leavers and remainers to keep them hanging on to hope and the notion that x or y will happen, when x and y can't possibly both happen because they are completely opposing strategies. Hope leads us blindly to stumble like fools into his trap and to win his reelection.

Next week looks very bumpy indeed. Chances are this thread won't make it past Saturday...

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mathanxiety · 31/08/2019 21:18

BCF, the problem of a head of state without any power whatsoever as guardian of the constitution would only exist if the current farce was to be imported lock, stop and barrel into a new republican constitutional arrangement.

Ireland's constitution accords a role to the (directly elected) President wrt the Constitution that far exceeds that of HMQ.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 21:19

If it weren*t for Brexit (!) the EU might have considered invoking Article 7,
which they are currently trying to do against Hungary
(once the UK Brexits, only Poland would defend Hungary)

However, with Brexit on 31 October, there is no point in them trying A7 - and anyway, they wouldn't want to ramp up the Brexiters' paranoia

yolofish · 31/08/2019 21:21

crunchycarrot where is your BELIEF??? of course Michael Gove and a mug (or are they the same thing?) is all we need to win through with our plucky British spirit!

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 21:21

math Can the Irish President really forbid the PM from carrying out a legal act ? Hmm

The problem is that the British Constitution is insufficiently codified to make this prorogue illegal

borntobequiet · 31/08/2019 21:22

They’ve missed a trick if they haven't got a mug that says Keep Calm and Get Ready For Brexit.
FFS what a lost marketing opportunity.

Outsomnia · 31/08/2019 21:22

Big Choc Frenzy

The problem with the current prorogation is that it does not appear to be illegal under the Constitution, merely an immoral abuse of power.

Under what Constitution anyway, there is no written Constitution.

So it has to be tested by precedent etc.. Handy that.

prettybird · 31/08/2019 21:23

flouncyfanny - I know that, so it depends on whether Labour supports a vote to over-ride the FTPA (as they did for May), which is not a given (but as tobee muses, they are hard wired to go for it) or can win a VONC (but when? Confused) but fails to be able to put together an alternative administration (or GNU) that can command the confidence of the HoC. Lots of variables and no certainties Confused

Personally, I think that if a No Deal is unavoidable, then BlowJob should be made to stay and carry the can Hmm Let's see how he tries to avoid responsibility for the clusterfuck Hmm

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 21:26

The Queen as head of the armed forces - who would probably follow her rather than any politician - does have ultimate power to enforce her decision.

However, a head of state - elected or hereditary - can't / shouldn't override legal actions by the government

Otherwise, there would be 2 governments in parallel and it would be impossible to govern

If the courts or the HoC surprise us all and order BJ to do something,
then the Queen has to step in - or fail in her duty

borntobequiet · 31/08/2019 21:28

London was good BTW. Cheerful but angry at the same time. I got to Downing St about 11:30 and spent a couple of hours near the Montgomery statue chatting to people and at one point joining in singing We Will Overcome (not done that for many years). Wandered about a bit - couldn’t actually hear speakers as too far away - then had to leave about 14:00 - seems I missed all the fun!
No one seemed to notice my RTB...

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 21:29

Outsomnia That's why I keep saying we need a written Constitution

Absolutely not claiming it solves things
but it is an absolutely nevessary first step to help avoid future shit like this

Noone here in Germany can believe how undefined the powers of govt are, or the rights of Parliament and people

Germany has a precise, written Constitution, partly designed by the Uk after WW2 !
We had the sense then to make referenda illegal - for Germany

Outsomnia · 31/08/2019 21:29

Well I think many might believe that NO DEAL is just a threat to the EU.

I think they will now nod and say OK, off you go.

I say this because NO DEAL could have been done three years ago and every month since then, and wonder why it hasn't?

Can anyone say why not?

CrunchyCarrot · 31/08/2019 21:31

crunchycarrot where is your BELIEF???

I know, I know, I am a SINNER! I want to believe in Unicorns and money trees, honest!! sobs quietly

Then again - perhaps those mugs will sell on Ebay in the future, limited edition Brexit mugs !

cherin · 31/08/2019 21:32

^They’ve missed a trick if they haven't got a mug that says Keep Calm and Get Ready For Brexit.
FFS what a lost marketing opportunity.^
Genius!

born maybe all the good advertising/marketing companies refused to help him??

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 21:32

Why not ?

Because May wasn't prepared to let No Deal actually happen
Her sense of duty prevented it; despite all her pandering to the ERG, No Deal was one step too far for her

The current PM and govt really are that irresponsible to go for No Deal

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 21:34

Cherin

Westminstenders: Game On?
yolofish · 31/08/2019 21:34

I was wondering today about if the Army get called in to provide 'civil assistance'... this may sound clumsy so I apologise in advance.

My perception of Army use on UK mainland is to help people in times of emergency (sandbagging for floods, evacuations etc)

I find it really really hard to imagine that your average squaddie would be willing to use force, whether minor or major, on their own countrymen or women. And yes, I know, NI, but I think most Army recruits are English, Scottish, Welsh?

Who would their higher loyalty be to, the Queen or the Govt? I am assuming the Queen as they swear an oath, but then it is HMQ govt?

mathanxiety · 31/08/2019 21:39

Motheroffourdragons

talkceltic . net identifies Govan as majority Celtic, and sadly that means more RC than protestant.

Elder Park is quite a distance from Ibrox.

Outsomnia · 31/08/2019 21:40

There will be no written Constitution in uk in my, and many other people's lifetimes. It suits those in power to test the boundaries instead.

And if successful, such as this prorogation, it could be used forevermore by every Government in power.

That is the worry for me. The precedent will be set.

flouncyfanny · 31/08/2019 21:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CrunchyCarrot · 31/08/2019 21:43

This might be fun...

Westminstenders: Game On?
flouncyfanny · 31/08/2019 21:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hoooo · 31/08/2019 21:44

Rather unfortunate that TM came up with "no deal is better than a bad deal", the mad bint.

BigChocFrenzy · 31/08/2019 21:45

yolo I'm a military brat and it was always "Queen and Country",
never "government & country" or "PM and country"

In the Officers' mess, the toast is always "The Queen", never the PM

The first loyalty of soldiers is to each other
However, after that, I'd expect nearly all to follow the Queen rather than the PM, if there were a conflict

BUT
Farage has a lot of support at squaddie level

prettybird · 31/08/2019 21:52

I'll take the view of a Roman Catholic who was brought up (and worked in a Protestant pub on Paisley Road West) in the area about why a Republican Walk in Govan is inflammatory. Confused

In the same way that an Orange Walk in the East End is inflammatory. Sad

Govanborn · 31/08/2019 21:59

Name changed as outing.

Protestant born in Govan. Never ever heard that area is more Catholic than Protestant. What would I know though. Just googled it...........