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Brexit

Westminstenders: Prorogation

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2019 11:10

Its come to this.

Boris Johnson is to ask the Queen for permission to suspend parliament.

There are several legal challenges in the system to prevent this from happening.

It is unlikely to be able to stopped and the Queen is unlikely to intervene either. To do so would expose the Monarchy directly to a political threat which could lead to the downfall of the Crown if the cards lined up. Johnson has deliberate set up the situations where if she does, he is on the 'side of the people' whilst she is on the 'side of the establishment'. If she does nothing, she might be exposed still but none action, can be spun as political neutrality.

As David Allen Green points out:
^David Allen Green @davidallengreen
This is now the realm of pure politics

No court is likely to intervene - and it is not obvious what remedy a court could even grant so as to satisfactorily resolve the matter

"Not justiciable" as judges sometimes say

As we have seen so far, the opposition have been completely outclassed when it comes to 'pure politics' partly because of tribalism, partly because they lacked the capacity to understand and imagine how bad this could get - they never thought Johnson would go this far (massive tactical mistake) and partly because they so far do not understand whats driving this and have not produced and alternative narrative and explaination to counter those social and political fractures. Indeed everything they are doing is only serving to reinforce and widen those rifts and their complete lack of self awareness has been to blame. Johnson not only sees these fractures, he understands them, knows how to exploit them and most importantly is willing to do anything to retain power.

Authoritarians are always driven by this lust for power and are won't stop for anything. Thats why they are so dangerous and why checks and balances were put into the system. The trouble is the opposition didn't read the signs and are flapping in the wind now its reached the point where they suddenly realise its too far gone to be able to do much. The runaway train is firmly off the rails.

This all comes a day after the opposition apparently have agree a strategy to oppose No Deal. Which seems to include a VoNC. Remember this will always require Tory Rebels as even working together the Opposition haven't got the numbers - especially considering there are a few Labour Brexiteers.

This is being framed as a coalition of anti-democrats (which is something of a contradiction on several levels) by the government and the Brexit Party.

They have signed a pledge to set up an alternative parliament if government does prorogue parliament. This is full on civil war era stuff aka as a full blown constitutional crisis. Its actively into dangerous terrority. And as such, we very much into talking about the very real possibility of civil unrest. This is no longer something that can be considered hyperbole.

The timetable of this would see parliament prorogued just a few days into September (next week), closed to prepare for a new Queen's Speech and returning around the 17th October remembering the crucial final EU sumit on the 17th October. A VoNC doesn't necessarily mean the government will go though. There is no legal requirement to force the government to stand down. We may yet end up with a situation of two governments claiming legitmacy at the same time in late October. Prime Ministers Corbyn and Johnson.

A GE might eventually be the result of such a constitutional crisis but we would be way past 31st October before that happens.

Would we end up with an extension in such circumstances? Well the Prime Minister has to ask for one formally from the EU and the EU have to agree to one.

The problem being, who do the EU recognise as our PM?

We also have things coming into legal effect on the 1st November which would otherwise need revoking by parliament.

Which Parliament?

Things are going to get very very messy indeed.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 10:43

All their supporters are gloating that it will stop Parliament blocking No Deal

prettybird · 29/08/2019 10:44

Looking at it from a different angle, the fact that BloJob felt the need to take the nuclear and controversial option of the unprecedented extra long prorogation means that he was actually worried that there was a realistic possibility of Parliament doing something to stop him.

On the other hand, Hitler obtained his power by legal means. By the time people realised what he was doing, it was too late Sad

I wish more of the politicians, commentators and MSM would start calling a spade a spade and stop being afraid of pointing out the very real parallels. Angry

Peregrina · 29/08/2019 10:44

And between now and then I will go to every local event I can.

Me too. I have to stand up to be counted.

IDontBelieveYou · 29/08/2019 10:47

Can we put together a list of brief points of why this prorogration isn’t normal?

  • The normal time to parliament to be in recess is xx days, not 5 weeks.
  • Recess stops only commons sitting. Prorogation stops all work including x y z
  • While there was potentially a 3? week recess for conference season, that hadn’t been voted on and may have been voted against given the crisis.
  • Prorogation means potential bills such as as the DV bill will disappear.

Simple stuff that non-political types can understand, that we can share on SM.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 29/08/2019 10:50

Jeremy Corbyn
@jeremycorbyn
·
17h
I think what the US president is saying, is that Boris Johnson is exactly what he has been looking for, a compliant Prime Minister who will hand Britain's public services and protections over to US corporations in a free trade deal.
Quote Tweet

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
· 20h
Would be very hard for Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of Britain’s Labour Party, to seek a no-confidence vote against New Prime Minister Boris Johnson, especially in light of the fact that Boris is exactly what the U.K. has been looking for, & will prove to be “a great one!” Love U.K.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 10:52

Keep to shorter bullet points, not so much detail, or many people won't read,

e.g.
Commons would probably have voted to sit in conference recess

Recess stops only commons sitting. Prorogation stops all their other work

Socksontheradiator · 29/08/2019 10:52

I think Corbyn is bang on the money there.

PerkingFaintly · 29/08/2019 10:54

Looking at it from a different angle, the fact that BloJob felt the need to take the nuclear and controversial option of the unprecedented extra long prorogation means that he was actually worried that there was a realistic possibility of Parliament doing something to stop him.

That's the optimistic view.

The less optimistic view is that Brexit isn't his goal, just a useful distraction. That the prorogation isn't a means to Brexit, but that Brexit is a means to degrade the UK's democracy.

It's a tool that he can use to achieve what a PP described: an alliance between the rich and those at the bottom economically, by giving the latter something to hate.

In general, it's much cheaper, and also more powerful, to feed your supporters on a culture war than to do things which actually benefit them economically and might cut into your own economic advantage.

Socksontheradiator · 29/08/2019 10:54

Prorogation stops all their other work - I didn't know that!

PerkingFaintly · 29/08/2019 10:55

Culture war or other useful "cause", that is.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 10:59

Average length of time of prorogation since 2010: 8 days

Suggested length of prorogation in 2019: 31 days.

Camomila · 29/08/2019 11:00

That poor woman on sky news, the comments upset me more than the video. How can some people be so heartless?

Doyoureallyneedtoask · 29/08/2019 11:03

This needs to be faced NOW. We are going to need people to be hard-headed and pragmatic in the coming weeks.

Nothing can be done except procrastinate. The population are sitting ducks.

Read over the Brexit threads from the beginning.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 11:03

"Brexit isn't his goal, just a useful distraction."

Brexit is the means to achieve his goals

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 11:05

Lord Kerslake, former head of the civil service:

“We are reaching the point where the civil service must consider putting its stewardship of the country ahead of service to the government of the day.'

blesseddamozel · 29/08/2019 11:06

camomila I thought someone had changed their shoes. Style will always out Grin

theoriginalmadambee · 29/08/2019 11:06

Guess you have seen this, it is referred in a major newspaper here. But believe me, the Brexit coverage is way down the list Hmm

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/08/29/search-median-voter-brexit?utmsource=twitter&utmmmedium=websitearticle&utmmcampaign=willjenningssmedianvoter

Westminstenders: Prorogation
Camomila · 29/08/2019 11:09

Shoes?! I was talking about the Portughese lady (I only watched half then had to turn her off)

CrunchyCarrot · 29/08/2019 11:13

Ruth Davison saying live on BBC that she believes Johnson wants a deal and that the prorogation is so the WA can be brought back and voted on.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 11:14

RD is either a fool or a liar

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 11:15

Ian Birrell@ianbirrell

What ministers said about prorogation
before they put their own careers before the interests of the country

  1. @NickyMorgan01, culture sec:

'It would lead to a constitutional crisis.'

  1. @MattHancock, health sec:

'There is this idea from some people that to deliver Brexit we should suspend our parliamentary democracy, we should prorogue parliament.

That goes against everything those men who waded onto those beaches fought & died for - and I will not have it'

  1. @AmberRuddHR, work & pensions sec:

'The idea of leaving the EU to take back more control into parliament and to consider the idea of closing parliament to do that is the most extraordinary idea I've ever heard.

It is a ridiculous suggestion to consider Proroguing parliament

  1. Sajid Javid, chancellor:

You don't deliver on democracy by trashing democracy . . . we are not selecting a dictator of our country"

  1. @MattHancock again:

Proroguing Parliament undermines parliamentary democracy.
I rule it out and call on all candidates to do the same

  1. @AmberRuddHR again:

'I think it’s outrageous to consider proroguing Parliament.
We are not Stuart kings.”

  1. @MattHancock yet again:

'A policy on Brexit to prorogue Parliament would mean the end of the Conservative Party as a serious party of government'

  1. @michaelgove, Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster:

'I think it will be wrong for many reasons.
I think it would not be true to the best traditions of British democracy

  1. @NickyMorgan01 again:

'Proroguing Parliament is clearly a mad suggestion.

You cannot say you are going to take back control … and then go:
‘Oh, by the way, we are just going to shut Parliament down for a couple of months, so we are just going to drift out on a no deal’

  1. @andrealeadsom, business sec, was asked if she could go along with such a plan.

'No I don’t believe I would and I don’t believe it would happen.'

  1. @andrealeadsom also said:

'It's certainly not something I would seek to do. I'm passionate about parliament democracy.'
......
12) @GeorgeFreemanMP, transport minister:

'The idea that a new PM will want, let alone be allowed by backbench MPs or Peers,
to prorogue Parliament is bonkers.
It would look appalling.'

ListeningQuietly · 29/08/2019 11:15

Ruth Davison is leaving now so she can return later

DarlingNikita · 29/08/2019 11:17

ListeningQuietly, that's interesting. Do you mean after the WA is brought back and voted on, as Crunchy reports her saying on the BBC?

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 11:18

RD "Tories are a 'truly national party once again'"

and will be wiped out in Scotland again at the next GE, to return to being an English Nationalist party

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 11:20

Why on earth do people keep suggesting BJ will bring back the WA ? Hmm

I can only think it is a comforting fairy tale for them

He & his supporters WANT No Deal
They would destroy him if he even tried to bring back the Wa

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