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Brexit

Westminstenders: Prorogation

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2019 11:10

Its come to this.

Boris Johnson is to ask the Queen for permission to suspend parliament.

There are several legal challenges in the system to prevent this from happening.

It is unlikely to be able to stopped and the Queen is unlikely to intervene either. To do so would expose the Monarchy directly to a political threat which could lead to the downfall of the Crown if the cards lined up. Johnson has deliberate set up the situations where if she does, he is on the 'side of the people' whilst she is on the 'side of the establishment'. If she does nothing, she might be exposed still but none action, can be spun as political neutrality.

As David Allen Green points out:
^David Allen Green @davidallengreen
This is now the realm of pure politics

No court is likely to intervene - and it is not obvious what remedy a court could even grant so as to satisfactorily resolve the matter

"Not justiciable" as judges sometimes say

As we have seen so far, the opposition have been completely outclassed when it comes to 'pure politics' partly because of tribalism, partly because they lacked the capacity to understand and imagine how bad this could get - they never thought Johnson would go this far (massive tactical mistake) and partly because they so far do not understand whats driving this and have not produced and alternative narrative and explaination to counter those social and political fractures. Indeed everything they are doing is only serving to reinforce and widen those rifts and their complete lack of self awareness has been to blame. Johnson not only sees these fractures, he understands them, knows how to exploit them and most importantly is willing to do anything to retain power.

Authoritarians are always driven by this lust for power and are won't stop for anything. Thats why they are so dangerous and why checks and balances were put into the system. The trouble is the opposition didn't read the signs and are flapping in the wind now its reached the point where they suddenly realise its too far gone to be able to do much. The runaway train is firmly off the rails.

This all comes a day after the opposition apparently have agree a strategy to oppose No Deal. Which seems to include a VoNC. Remember this will always require Tory Rebels as even working together the Opposition haven't got the numbers - especially considering there are a few Labour Brexiteers.

This is being framed as a coalition of anti-democrats (which is something of a contradiction on several levels) by the government and the Brexit Party.

They have signed a pledge to set up an alternative parliament if government does prorogue parliament. This is full on civil war era stuff aka as a full blown constitutional crisis. Its actively into dangerous terrority. And as such, we very much into talking about the very real possibility of civil unrest. This is no longer something that can be considered hyperbole.

The timetable of this would see parliament prorogued just a few days into September (next week), closed to prepare for a new Queen's Speech and returning around the 17th October remembering the crucial final EU sumit on the 17th October. A VoNC doesn't necessarily mean the government will go though. There is no legal requirement to force the government to stand down. We may yet end up with a situation of two governments claiming legitmacy at the same time in late October. Prime Ministers Corbyn and Johnson.

A GE might eventually be the result of such a constitutional crisis but we would be way past 31st October before that happens.

Would we end up with an extension in such circumstances? Well the Prime Minister has to ask for one formally from the EU and the EU have to agree to one.

The problem being, who do the EU recognise as our PM?

We also have things coming into legal effect on the 1st November which would otherwise need revoking by parliament.

Which Parliament?

Things are going to get very very messy indeed.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 08:57

I read his concern is about the optics of scandal rather than the human cost:

"Please help sort this out @patel4witham before we end up with another Windrush scandal"

Peregrina · 29/08/2019 08:58

During the 17th Century we had the Long Parliament and the Rump Parliament. I wonder what this one will go down in history as - the Corrupt Parliament?

Sooner or later, probably later, things will turn.

Peregrina · 29/08/2019 09:00

It's more like - before we are seen to have another Windrush scandal.

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 29/08/2019 09:00

Hungover PMK

prettybird · 29/08/2019 09:02

I agree that Hannan is only concerned with the optics of the very real a potential scandal, but it's still a start. Wink

OhYouBadBadKitten · 29/08/2019 09:04

Morning all.

Our positive action thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3677475-Protests-against-the-Prorogation-of-Parliament

TheNorthWestPawsage · 29/08/2019 09:09

Challenged (STBXMP) Zac on his tweeted support of BJ’s move. Got this reply Angry

Westminstenders: Prorogation
verticality · 29/08/2019 09:12

There is an extremely good thread by Ruth Fox on Twitter about why it's disingenuous to say that Parliament will "only" miss five or six days through prorogation. Essentially, the crux of it is that the opposition wasn't going to go into recess for conference season, for obvious reasons.

twitter.com/RuthFox01/status/1166780601896243200

ThereWillBeAdequateFood · 29/08/2019 09:12

Dominic Greive is on LBC. He’s not prepared to tell the presenter his plans as he doesn’t want to forewarn Bozo. He’s up to something though.

verticality · 29/08/2019 09:15

The plans are pretty obvious - there will be a cross-party attempt to legislate no deal off the table initially, then a VoNC, which MUST pass.

verticality · 29/08/2019 09:15

Meanwhile, a separate route will be pursued through the courts with challenges to prorogation.

DGRossetti · 29/08/2019 09:22

It interesting that Hannan appears to playing the concerned representative - moreover by actively highlighting assurances given in the past.

Most UnBrexity, where the SOP has been to ignore anything that happened yesterday.

Why ? What could have prompted him to remember assurances he gave (that he was in no position to deliver on) at this juncture in the proceedings ? Is it a reverse ferret ? Is it a dawning realisation of the magnitude of the approaching clusterfuck ? If so, why has he drawn attention to it rather than quietly "disremember" it ?

All is not well in camp Brexit methinks.

Motheroffourdragons · 29/08/2019 09:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

DGRossetti · 29/08/2019 09:26

It has been said, that under terms of the European Union membership, if the UK voluntarily closes it's parliament at Westminster, then any remaining Parliament, such as devolved Holyrood, becomes the default democratic Parliament of the state.

Now my google-fu can't find a quick source for that. Is my sense it's a LOOB pretty spot on ? Or has someone missed something ?

woman19 · 29/08/2019 09:26

Why

This lady who was on the news?

@AlexTaylorNews
Wow. You have to watch this, it just happened live on #SkyNews
A Portuguese woman, in GB for 20 yrs, papers refused...
"I gave this country my youth - I looked after your children, your elderly. You must make me part of this process, I have no voice. You can't just kick me out."
twitter.com/AlexTaylorNews/status/1166810390552023041

LoveGrowsWhere · 29/08/2019 09:28

vertically thanks for that thread. Did not realise this prorogarion effectively ties hands of House of Lords which a conference recess does not.

prettybird · 29/08/2019 09:31

I watched the lady live last night. It was heart rending Sad

....but then, we know that Priti, the ERG and the rest of the Brexiters don't have hearts. Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 09:31

woman Sad
I know it doesn't go down well here, but I'm fucking ashamed to be British and I don't know when I'll feel proud again, like I used to

Myriade · 29/08/2019 09:32

Please excuse my generalisations there. I do KNOW that many people do NOT think like this.

As an outsider/Eu citizen, Ive been looking at whats going on the UK for while. Trying to understand how british people are thinking, what are the customs, aka what is and isnt normal. A few things have come out

  • stories about how awful and oppressive it is to follow Human Rights have been there forever it seems. I remember clearly many legal challenges against the british government on the ground they broke Huamn rights. Those challenges, when lost, were always portrayed as something bad, like all the red tape tht stops people from being innovative etc....
  • Following that, Ive rarely seen outrage at what would be considered as absolutely awful in my country, as in the 200k people who died because of the austerity measures or the imprisonment in detention centres of immigrants who POTENTIALLY arent legally in the uk. Both for the conditions in the detentions centres (eg no acces to internet so people cant contact their lawyers or issues with rape from the guards etc...) of for the fact children are sent to those centres too. All of which would go against the protection of Human Rights.
  • rules about information gathering are and have always been sloppy. From the use of video surveillance to facial recognition (latest one, being the private compay at KingCross station - which database are they using that alows them to 'spot' dangerous criminals?), what are the system in place that protect us, the population from those information gathering system to be used for more sinister reasons?
  • the demonizing of the left. Anything that is slightly on the left is branded communist and dangerous. And that obvioulsy inlcudes the protection of human rights, H&S, women rights, workers rights etc etc. All that being labelled 'liberal lefties who are living in coocoo land and do not have a grasp of the reality' as well as, recently, the liberal elite of course
  • this idea that everyone should be able to stand on their two feet wo any help and that if the system somehow fails, its never the fault of the system (or the people managing it/creating it aka politicians) but somehow the fault of the users. So its the users fault if the NHS is failing because of peole who dare going to the GP when they dont really need to. Benefits are because of benefit scoungers etc etc.... Not because of austerity, or political choice etc Or this idea that some people will need help from the state through no fault of their own. And if you do ask for support for the vulnerable groups, then you are a lefty (see above)
  • private is always best as private companies are always more efficient and prodcutive than the public sector/anyoe else. Always forgetting that private companies are only interested about the profits so they might not be the best to del with public services (such as NHS, schools etc etc). But more importanty, it also means that private companies shoud always be put first. Before the people/workers (eg the zero hours contract) This is acceptable as long as this can be sort of explained with creating or keeping jobs
  • a political system that isnt kept in check by the press. This has been going on for years with most newspapers being in hands of a few (and generally not chalenging the consenus for fear of upsetting the owner). This is critical because its the press that can keep on the toes of rogue politicans.

Now this has been going for years. In the 20 years, Ive lived here, Ive seen those ideas becoming more and more entrentched and 'normal'.
Compare that with what BJ is proposing, incl proroguing. Its the same. what we see now is the continuation of what as been coming for the last 20 years (or more, cant cmment before that). The refusal to follow laws and rules there to protect people/population, deregulations right left and centre, the rise of the xenophobia etc etc

And imo this is why BJ would win a GE. None of what he is doing atm is outrageous compare the current 'standards'. The system as a whole as moved to the right and then extreme right wo anyone actually naming it when it would have made a difference

and Yes i do apreciate that its not the case for everyone. The protests in London yesterday are proof of that. I doubt this is enough though. Im afraid too many people are so used to the system that they see that as normal and that there is actually no escape from it.

Sorry this is quite negative. And very far from the UK I cam to live in (open and tolerant). But thats what I see nowdays :(

Myriade · 29/08/2019 09:33

Sorry that was extremely long Blush

Im really upset at the whole thing atm....

woman19 · 29/08/2019 09:36

I agree BCF I agree Myriade

merrymouse · 29/08/2019 09:38

Zac only has a 40 seat majority doesn't he?

Motheroffourdragons · 29/08/2019 09:40

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

merrymouse · 29/08/2019 09:47

Anything that is slightly on the left is branded communist and dangerous.

The Tories always say this, but if you look at the UK as a whole, we are socially liberal, proud of the NHS and policies that increase government regulation - seat belts, smoking bans, charges for plastic bags, food regulation - are viewed favourably.

The Tories do not have anything like majority support for a right wing Brexit.

Brexit is about tribalism, not policy. Even now, I think less than 5% of the UK population could explain how the EU works or how it affects the UK.

Myriade · 29/08/2019 09:54

Even now, I think less than 5% of the UK population could explain how the EU works or how it affects the UK.

In France, part ofthe curriculum is explaiing how institutions work. That means the institutions in France (parliament, how is he president eleted, what sort of checks are n place etc) but also the Europeans institutions. (Plus of course the EU flag that is always there with the french one)

The UK has always behaved as if it was in the EU whilst refusing to acknowledge it.
So of course people have no idea how it works or what it does
See also all the scaremongering and false news about what the EU allegedly is imposig on the UK. such as the issue with toasters and hoovers, limiting the use of electricty that woud stop an entertainment industry going etc....