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Brexit

Westminstenders: Prorogation

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2019 11:10

Its come to this.

Boris Johnson is to ask the Queen for permission to suspend parliament.

There are several legal challenges in the system to prevent this from happening.

It is unlikely to be able to stopped and the Queen is unlikely to intervene either. To do so would expose the Monarchy directly to a political threat which could lead to the downfall of the Crown if the cards lined up. Johnson has deliberate set up the situations where if she does, he is on the 'side of the people' whilst she is on the 'side of the establishment'. If she does nothing, she might be exposed still but none action, can be spun as political neutrality.

As David Allen Green points out:
^David Allen Green @davidallengreen
This is now the realm of pure politics

No court is likely to intervene - and it is not obvious what remedy a court could even grant so as to satisfactorily resolve the matter

"Not justiciable" as judges sometimes say

As we have seen so far, the opposition have been completely outclassed when it comes to 'pure politics' partly because of tribalism, partly because they lacked the capacity to understand and imagine how bad this could get - they never thought Johnson would go this far (massive tactical mistake) and partly because they so far do not understand whats driving this and have not produced and alternative narrative and explaination to counter those social and political fractures. Indeed everything they are doing is only serving to reinforce and widen those rifts and their complete lack of self awareness has been to blame. Johnson not only sees these fractures, he understands them, knows how to exploit them and most importantly is willing to do anything to retain power.

Authoritarians are always driven by this lust for power and are won't stop for anything. Thats why they are so dangerous and why checks and balances were put into the system. The trouble is the opposition didn't read the signs and are flapping in the wind now its reached the point where they suddenly realise its too far gone to be able to do much. The runaway train is firmly off the rails.

This all comes a day after the opposition apparently have agree a strategy to oppose No Deal. Which seems to include a VoNC. Remember this will always require Tory Rebels as even working together the Opposition haven't got the numbers - especially considering there are a few Labour Brexiteers.

This is being framed as a coalition of anti-democrats (which is something of a contradiction on several levels) by the government and the Brexit Party.

They have signed a pledge to set up an alternative parliament if government does prorogue parliament. This is full on civil war era stuff aka as a full blown constitutional crisis. Its actively into dangerous terrority. And as such, we very much into talking about the very real possibility of civil unrest. This is no longer something that can be considered hyperbole.

The timetable of this would see parliament prorogued just a few days into September (next week), closed to prepare for a new Queen's Speech and returning around the 17th October remembering the crucial final EU sumit on the 17th October. A VoNC doesn't necessarily mean the government will go though. There is no legal requirement to force the government to stand down. We may yet end up with a situation of two governments claiming legitmacy at the same time in late October. Prime Ministers Corbyn and Johnson.

A GE might eventually be the result of such a constitutional crisis but we would be way past 31st October before that happens.

Would we end up with an extension in such circumstances? Well the Prime Minister has to ask for one formally from the EU and the EU have to agree to one.

The problem being, who do the EU recognise as our PM?

We also have things coming into legal effect on the 1st November which would otherwise need revoking by parliament.

Which Parliament?

Things are going to get very very messy indeed.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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CordeliaWyndamPryce · 29/08/2019 00:20

It's G/ABH, child abuse, illegal and in breach of ECHR.

I have never, and hopefully will never, used any kind of force on a child. However, my legal advice comes from my union, not people on mumsnet. They, and my employers, are very clear - reasonable force is permitted in schools. Of course any use of reasonable force would be reported through our usual safeguarding procedures.

I actually personally only know of it happening once - a colleague intervened to break up a fight. The investigation was thorough.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 00:23

Whoever refuses to compromise, whether it is JC or anyone else, is prioritising their own wishes / fears over stopping No Deal

However, JC might indeed think that No Deal gives him, or at least Labour, their best chance to win a string of GEs,
after the economy goes down the toilet and takes the Tory party with it

So, I suspect he's torn 2 ways

There would of course be the immediate period of Tory Brexiters in charge and smashing anyone who gets in their way, including trade unions or other "subversives"

LouiseCollins28 · 29/08/2019 00:25

What JC could or could not do is irrelevant. The problem is that somebody who will be fighting an election as a prospective PM for the opposition in a matter of weeks would, before that, have become PM already by Parliamentary fiat, at the head of a Government of National Unity, no less.

Clearly, someone else who is actually a unifying figure should be chosen.

phpolly · 29/08/2019 00:26

.

LouiseCollins28 · 29/08/2019 00:29

Again if a caretaker PM is needed, surely that must be someone acceptable to all sides, no?.Jeremy Corbyn is not that person.

woman19 · 29/08/2019 00:30

They, and my employers, are very clear - reasonable force is permitted in schools

At present is used as a 'restraint', not as punishment, which is what this crew are advocating.

Attacking children is clearly popular with some demographics.

tobee · 29/08/2019 00:31

Interesting if teachers have been able to use "reasonable force" for ages that it's made sky news today and was part of a document labelled "sensitive". I'm not doubting that they have btw. Just ... interesting.

Peregrina · 29/08/2019 00:37

What is wrong with a PM chosen by Parliament? All those people were elected. Who elected the people who made Johnson the Tory leader?

Lonelycrab · 29/08/2019 00:38

You’re right Louise, Jc is not ideal. But for an interim govt it’s the lesser of two evils I think.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 00:38

FT Editorial (paywall): Boris Johnson’s suspension of parliament is an affront to democracy

https://www.ft.com/content/9dbc7852-c9b2-11e9-af46-b09e8bfe60c0

Boris Johnson has detonated a bomb under the constitutional apparatus of the United Kingdom.

The prime minister’s request to the Queen to suspend parliament for up to five weeks, ostensibly to prepare a new legislative programme, is without modern precedent.

It is an intolerable attempt to silence parliament until it can no longer halt a disastrous crash-out by the UK from the EU on October 31.

The seat of British democracy, long admired worldwide, is being denied a say on the most consequential decision facing the country in more than four decades.

So, too, are the British people in whose name Mr Johnson claims to be acting. It is time for parliamentarians to bring down his government in a no-confidence vote, paving the way for an election in which the people can express their will.

Britain’s representative government is an exercise in deliberative democracy which involves discussion, negotiation and inevitable compromises.

It vests the power to take decisions on behalf of voters in MPs,
and allows them to deliberate on matters of detail
and in the case of Brexit, the most complex demerger in postwar history, detail matters.
.....
History has shown that charlatans, demagogues and would-be dictators have little time for representative government.

They seek ways around parliament before concluding it is an inconvenience.

Mr Johnson may not be a tyrant, but he has set a dangerous precedent.
He and the cabal around him who have chosen this revolutionary path should be careful what they wish for.

The prime minister’s protestations that he is doing nothing abnormal are as disingenuous as the claims plastered across the bus from which he fronted the Leave campaign in 2016.

Proroguing parliament ahead of a Queen’s Speech is established procedure,
but for one or two weeks, not five.

A temporary recess during September’s party conferences is normal though some parliamentary business continues even then.
A brief prorogation could have been timed to coincide with conference season.

There is no legal or administrative justification for a complete five-week cessation of parliament’s activities ahead of a Queen’s Speech.
Mr Johnson is using constitutional chicanery to thwart a parliament that he knows has a majority against his chosen policy.

The prime minister will argue that the credibility of his threat to leave the EU without an accord unless Brussels agrees to rewrite Britain’s withdrawal deal is undermined if MPs are doing their best to stop him.
Yet to muzzle parliament as part of a reckless negotiating ploy is an act of constitutional vandalism.

While this newspaper is no supporter of plebiscites, it has maintained the view that the outcome of the 2016 referendum should be implemented, but in a way that limits as far as possible the harm to the UK’s economy, security and national standing.

The referendum delivered no mandate to ram through the most extreme form of Brexit.
The Conservative party’s 2017 election manifesto, while repeating the misguided mantra that “no deal is better than a bad deal”,
pledged to secure “the best possible deal for Britain . . . delivered by a smooth, orderly Brexit”.

Mr Johnson became prime minister thanks only to the votes of 92,000 Tory party members.
No premier who has assumed power outside a general election has ever deviated so radically from his party’s previous platform,
nor sought to pursue a step with such grave implications.

If Mr Johnson’s prorogation ploy succeeds, Britain will forfeit any right to lecture other countries on their democratic shortcomings.
The UK’s constitutional arrangements have long relied on conventions.
The danger existed that an unscrupulous leader could trample on such conventions.
That has not happened, in the modern era, until now.

Parliamentarians must seize their opportunity next week to assert the will of the Commons against that of the prime minister.
The brief period for which they will sit may be too short to pass legislation demanding a delay to the UK’s EU departure.
Those opposed to a no-deal Brexit must then cast aside their differences and pass a motion of no confidence in the government.

This is unpalatable for even the most ardent Tory Remainers, and others such as the Liberal Democrats,
since ousting Mr Johnson in time to affect the Brexit process may also require the creation of a caretaker government under Labour’s Jeremy Corbyn an outcome they rightly fear.

The overriding priority, however, must be to safeguard British democracy.
Mr Johnson might seek to ignore such a vote and try to hang on until after Brexit.
This would be an even greater constitutional affront than his actions this week.
It would confirm that Britain has a despot in Downing Street.

The standard path for governments facing parliaments that prevent them from implementing their policies is to take the matter to the country.
The prime minister might then stand on a “no deal” platform, potentially in a pact with the Brexit party.

If he won, Britain would have to respect the result and live with the consequences.
Opposition parties would have to use their own strenuous campaigning and electoral pacts to prevent such an outcome.

Mr Johnson is framing the current battle as one between parliament and the people.
If he is confident of the people’s backing, he should be ready to test this with voters in an election

  • rather than making a cavalier attempt to frustrate the parliamentary democracy that has been the foundation of Britain’s prosperity and stability.
woman19 · 29/08/2019 00:40

Pesky EU and Pesky Human rights stopped adults attacking children with weapons in schools.

1982: Parents can stop school beatings Corporal punishment in Britain's schools has been dealt a blow by the European Court of Human Rights

It has ruled that beating schoolchildren against their parents' wishes is a violation of the Human Rights Convention because parents should have their children taught "in conformity with their own religious and philosophical convictions

It is a legally binding decision and ends a four-year court battle brought by two Scottish mothers, Grace Campbell and Jane Cosans

In 1979, Mrs Campbell brought her private case to court when Strathclyde regional education authority refused to guarantee her 11-year-old son would not be beaten with the tawse, a leather strap used to beat the palm of the hand

news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/25/newsid_2516000/2516621.stm

Brexit Means Child Abuse. (will of the people etc)

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 00:44

The "right" PM is whoever can get the votes of majority of MPs

That of necessity means the votes of almost all Labour MPs
and he is the Official Leader of the Opposition, the "PM in waiting"

It's not a "Govt of National Unity" - it's just an ad hoc collection of MPs whose only aim is to stop No Deal
It's a fire extinguisher, because the country's hair is on fire

A GNU would be a much more formal, longterm coalition,
not a couple of weeks with probably just Confidence & Supply, not a coaltition at all.

Peregrina · 29/08/2019 00:47

I can't help but think that Johnson ramming his No Deal through, by chicanery will eventually help to destroy him. Once the Leavers, (at the moment happily screaming their heads off about him making a decision and going for it), realise that he, Rees-Mogg and Co don't give a flying f* about them, they will turn and it will get ugly.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 00:50

BJ won't be "destroyed"
If things get too tough for his liking, he'll swan off whistling like Cameron, to earn millions in the Uk and now US media

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 29/08/2019 00:50

I think the idea is that the government want to encourage more teachers to use reasonable force to remove disruptive children from the classroom. This is already legal, but I have never heard of it being used in this manner. As I understand it, this is a shift in emphasis rather than a change in the law. The fact it isn't being reported properly doesn't surprise me at all.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/use-of-reasonable-force-in-schools

woman19 · 29/08/2019 00:56

I think the idea is that the government want to encourage more teachers to use reasonable force to remove disruptive children from the classroom

Nope the idea is that it is used as a punishment.

Brexit still means Child Abuse.

Peregrina the protests are still going in London, all night.

Peregrina · 29/08/2019 00:58

BigChoc - you are right in terms of still making money and living a comfortable life like Cameron, but neither Cameron nor Johnson would chose to be remembered as political failures.

A GNU would be a much more formal, longterm coalition, not a couple of weeks with probably just Confidence & Supply, not a coaltition at all.

The way I would see this as coming about is that a caretaker Govt under Corbyn would ask for an extension and then call a GE which none of the parties won. It would then necessitate a Coalition but one would hope that it would be a genuine cross party coalition, not one where a large party trampled over the smaller one, but conveniently got them to take the blame. I would even allow decent Tories back in - if they manage to retain their seats. So Blowjob, who may lose his seat anyway, Patel, Rees-Mogg, Raab, Morgan, Rudd would all be out - anyone tainted with Johnson's administration. There would be space for Rory Stewart and people of his calibre.

Peregrina · 29/08/2019 00:58

It's night time and still the petition is clocking up signatures.

woman19 · 29/08/2019 00:58

The fact it isn't being reported properly doesn't surprise me at all

The fact that brexists get their jollies from deliberately hurting and injuring children doesn't surprise me at all.

It's been in ukip manifestos for years.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 01:00

Boris Johnson Is Planning A Series Of Extreme Measures In The Coming Weeks To Force Through Brexit

https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/boris-johnson-brexit-extreme-measures

Boris Johnson’s surprise move to ask the Queen to suspend Parliament for five weeks in the run-up to the Brexit deadline on Oct. 31
is just the opening salvo of a meticulously constructed Downing Street strategy to eat up time and head off attempts by rebel MPs to block a no-deal exit
.....
Johnson’s senior team - led by his chief of staff Dominic Cummings and director of legislative affairs Nikki da Costa -
has explored a number of increasingly controversial proposals it could deploy depending on the success of rebel attempts to thwart Brexit.

The ideas under consideration include the following:

•	Attempting to disrupt a Commons debate on Northern Ireland power-sharing due on Sept. 9, a day which could be used by rebels to attempt to delay Brexit. It is described by Johnson allies as a “time bomb” set for them in the final weeks of Theresa May’s premiership.

•	Determining whether Johnson would be breaking the law by ignoring any successful rebel legislation or refusing to resign in the event he lost a vote of no confidence.

•	Using a variety of mechanisms, including a potential budget, to create new Commons debates and further reduce time for rebels to act.

•	Using the prorogation of Parliament to “kill the bill” by rebel MPs and force them to table it again after the Queen’s Speech on Oct. 14.

•	Creating new bank holidays to prevent the House of Commons from being recalled during the prorogation period.

•	Filibustering any bill by rebel MPs attempting to force Johnson to delay Brexit when it reaches the House of Lords.

•	Ennobling new pro-Brexit peers as a last resort to kill any such bill in the Lords.

•	Exploring what the consequences would be if Johnson advised the Queen not to give royal assent to any legislation passed by Parliament delaying Brexit.

The measures were devised by the prime minister’s senior aides who have spent the summer in their Downing Street bunker war-gaming
how to respond to potential parliamentary manoeuvres by MPs determined to block no deal.

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 29/08/2019 01:01

Nope the idea is that it is used as a punishment.

Well that is shocking, and would require a change in the law. It isn't what was written in the linked sky news article though.

FoldyRoll · 29/08/2019 01:02

I suspect that Johnson has now unleashed something he can’t control

Absolutely. It has mystified me for three years that people are scared of Leaver violence. Look at the paltry numbers drummed up by Fartage for his march. Yaxley-Lennon losing his deposit. The leavers threatening violence are all mouth and no trousers; a bunch of scared little pub bores and geriatrics. Virtually none care enough to turn up for anything,

On the other hand you have a groundswell of people who have spent the past three years getting steadily more angry with incompetent government clusterfuck after incompetent government clusterfuck (whichever way they voted in 2016) and now find themselves looking at food and medicine shortages, job losses and suddenly notice they're all out of fucks to give about being nice and polite about an Etonian coup. It will be civil disobedience all the way from here on in.
Lots of people have realised today that saying 'they won't let this happen, they can't!' Was never about them. The they is us. We will not let this happen.

LouiseCollins28 · 29/08/2019 01:08

I agree a new caretaker PM must be able to command a majority in the House. A majority of MPs can be composed many ways and need not include “nearly all” or even “most” Labour MPs.

Nonetheless, If Labour members are so committed to averting no deal then I suggest they pick someone else to back to spearhead the effort. Should they fail to do that, then obviously they aren’t as comitted to prventing No Deal as they would have me believe.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/08/2019 01:09

View from Germany:

Norbert Röttgen@n_roettgen (Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, German Parliament)

#Johnson argues that respect for democracy dictates implementing #Brexitt^ 'do or die' on October 31.

As a fellow parliamentarian and democrat I wonder:
how does respect for democracy go together with suspending^ #parliamentt?!

woman19 · 29/08/2019 01:09

Well that is shocking, and would require a change in the law

It would require a breach of the ECHR which is what they've always wanted.

It isn't what was written in the linked sky news article though

Not beyond the wit of the brexist to research more deeply, oh wait a minute.........

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