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Brexit

Westminstenders: Prorogation

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/08/2019 11:10

Its come to this.

Boris Johnson is to ask the Queen for permission to suspend parliament.

There are several legal challenges in the system to prevent this from happening.

It is unlikely to be able to stopped and the Queen is unlikely to intervene either. To do so would expose the Monarchy directly to a political threat which could lead to the downfall of the Crown if the cards lined up. Johnson has deliberate set up the situations where if she does, he is on the 'side of the people' whilst she is on the 'side of the establishment'. If she does nothing, she might be exposed still but none action, can be spun as political neutrality.

As David Allen Green points out:
^David Allen Green @davidallengreen
This is now the realm of pure politics

No court is likely to intervene - and it is not obvious what remedy a court could even grant so as to satisfactorily resolve the matter

"Not justiciable" as judges sometimes say

As we have seen so far, the opposition have been completely outclassed when it comes to 'pure politics' partly because of tribalism, partly because they lacked the capacity to understand and imagine how bad this could get - they never thought Johnson would go this far (massive tactical mistake) and partly because they so far do not understand whats driving this and have not produced and alternative narrative and explaination to counter those social and political fractures. Indeed everything they are doing is only serving to reinforce and widen those rifts and their complete lack of self awareness has been to blame. Johnson not only sees these fractures, he understands them, knows how to exploit them and most importantly is willing to do anything to retain power.

Authoritarians are always driven by this lust for power and are won't stop for anything. Thats why they are so dangerous and why checks and balances were put into the system. The trouble is the opposition didn't read the signs and are flapping in the wind now its reached the point where they suddenly realise its too far gone to be able to do much. The runaway train is firmly off the rails.

This all comes a day after the opposition apparently have agree a strategy to oppose No Deal. Which seems to include a VoNC. Remember this will always require Tory Rebels as even working together the Opposition haven't got the numbers - especially considering there are a few Labour Brexiteers.

This is being framed as a coalition of anti-democrats (which is something of a contradiction on several levels) by the government and the Brexit Party.

They have signed a pledge to set up an alternative parliament if government does prorogue parliament. This is full on civil war era stuff aka as a full blown constitutional crisis. Its actively into dangerous terrority. And as such, we very much into talking about the very real possibility of civil unrest. This is no longer something that can be considered hyperbole.

The timetable of this would see parliament prorogued just a few days into September (next week), closed to prepare for a new Queen's Speech and returning around the 17th October remembering the crucial final EU sumit on the 17th October. A VoNC doesn't necessarily mean the government will go though. There is no legal requirement to force the government to stand down. We may yet end up with a situation of two governments claiming legitmacy at the same time in late October. Prime Ministers Corbyn and Johnson.

A GE might eventually be the result of such a constitutional crisis but we would be way past 31st October before that happens.

Would we end up with an extension in such circumstances? Well the Prime Minister has to ask for one formally from the EU and the EU have to agree to one.

The problem being, who do the EU recognise as our PM?

We also have things coming into legal effect on the 1st November which would otherwise need revoking by parliament.

Which Parliament?

Things are going to get very very messy indeed.

OP posts:
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Coppersulphate · 28/08/2019 21:45

Lonely, I do know quite a lot about democracy.
You just throw insults when democracy does not suit you.
You can't have it both ways.

The referendum was a democratic vote. MPs have done their best to overturn that vote. How is that democratic?
The PM is within his legal rights to prorogue parliament. Nothing undemocratic about it.

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 28/08/2019 21:48

The PM is within his legal rights to prorogue parliament.

Does this not worry you? A PM proroguing parliament to avoid parliamentary scrutiny on an unpopular policy. It certainly worries me.

Sostenueto · 28/08/2019 21:49

I must have missed the bit on the ballot paper that said leave without a deal Confused

BoreOfWhabylon · 28/08/2019 21:50

appalled pmk

Lonelycrab · 28/08/2019 21:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Sostenueto · 28/08/2019 21:51

What would happen if some of the Tory MPs grew some balls and first day back in Parliament crossed the floor?

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 28/08/2019 21:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sostenueto · 28/08/2019 21:53

Oh come on I thought this a civilised thread Sad

AuldAlliance · 28/08/2019 21:55

The referendum was a democratic vote.

One that deliberately excluded huge numbers of those most likely to be affected and which will deprive many of basic human rights.
One that involved overt lies and cynical manipulation of social media.
One that asked a very vague question, which was then twisted by politicians to mean whatever suited them.
...
Odd definition of democracy.

Outsomnia · 28/08/2019 21:55

Democracy is a joke in Parliament now.

Those who deny this are supporting a dictatorship in the making.

But here we are now and no one is prepared to fight back. Very sad times for all of us.

Hazardtired · 28/08/2019 21:56

Are we going over this again? Really?

IT WAS NON BINDING and because it was non binding DC was all like no Alex from SNP you must not worry, we don't need stipulations like thresholds for drastic referendums because it's not binding so there's a safety net.

Where's our fucking safety net?

Also because it was non binding there was less rules about lying and Johnson pounced on that like a pervert at a pervert convention.

Johnson is a couping cunt taking advantage.

Always remember and if you voted leave you must visualize: everytime the pound drops Nigel and Jacob have a wank with a 50 pound note.

Sostenueto · 28/08/2019 21:58

Tbh the remain/ leave with a deal MPs have been faffing for ages and simply none is prepared to put their country before their own careers that includes the brexiteers too. The whole lot are to blame for this bloody messSad

Sostenueto · 28/08/2019 22:01

My greatest fear is losing the NHS. God help us all if the USA gets a foothold in it.

AutumnCrow · 28/08/2019 22:04

Well, it's happening. Hold on to your jaunty wee bonnets.

Hazardtired · 28/08/2019 22:06

Any one capable of giving a brief explanation of disater capitalism and markets?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/3677571-Pls-give-me-the-idiots-guide-to-what-Boris-has-just-done?msgid=89655275#89655275

BigChocFrenzy · 28/08/2019 22:11

Prorogation will hold up key bills- could make Brexit even more of a car crash

The Immigration Bill
The Trade Bill
Agriculture Bill
Fisheries Bill
Financial Services (Implementation of Legislation) Bill, for the City:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-28/johnson-throws-spanner-into-london-bankers-brexit-preparations

The end of a parliamentary session usually sees uncontentious bills in their final stages rushed through by mutual agreement, a process known as “wash-up.”
It remains to be seen whether Johnson has the goodwill to get anything through.

The failure of the bill would make the process of no-deal preparation even more difficult.

It adds to uncertainties such as whether the U.K. will be recognized as equivalent in the eyes of the EU regulators, which would allow firms to trade across borders more easily.

Outsomnia · 28/08/2019 22:18

BJ and Cummings are relying on the reality that people will just accept this. Nothing they can do now.

So we will just sit back and accept the inevitable.

WTAF? But they are probably right now. It is all about timing.

woman19 · 28/08/2019 22:18

Good thread on the prorogation and why it's important.
Hansard Head of Research lady will be on Today tomorrow morning:
twitter.com/RuthFox01/status/1166782378670473221

The failure of the bill would make the process of no-deal preparation even more difficul
Rapturists.

'evil selfish toffs' as my nan used to call them.

theoriginalmadambee · 28/08/2019 22:19

Won't pretend I understand any of your politics. I have really tried, but it just gets more and more incomprehensible Confused.
You need a constitution.
Wishing you the best possible outcome.

Motheroffourdragons · 28/08/2019 22:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 28/08/2019 22:23

I expect that people are feeling really wound up and angry tonight. I'm going to try and practise what I preach by turning off my ipad and leaving it downstairs. Tomorrow it's likely that we will feel gloomy and depressed, especially if we haven't had rest.

Try and save some anger for action, but look after yourselves, maybe pop outside for a spot of cool air, give your families a kiss and remember that by looking after ourselves we can fight what is to come.

Tomorrow plan which protests you are going to go to.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3677475-Protests-against-the-Prorogation-of-Parliament

flouncyfanny · 28/08/2019 22:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lonelycrab · 28/08/2019 22:25

We don’t understand our politics either, madam😞

WorriedMutha · 28/08/2019 22:26

Why is business so deafeningly silent. Why are we doing all the heavy lifting. What does it take for them to speak out.

wheresmymojo · 28/08/2019 22:28

To be fair - every time business have spoken out they've just been met with shouts of 'Project Fear'.

Barely a week goes by when a business of some kind doesn't speak out. It doesn't appear to make any difference...

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