Westminstenders: A photo opportunity

[RedToothBrush]

Johnson likes publicity.

Any attention is good attention. Whilst you are talking about how crazy his idea is, the less you come up with your own.

And there it is. The lack of plan to stop no deal. Just a bunch of idiots who argue over who is more right about politics without offering up a practical solution.

Unable to see their own flaws.

And leading us ever closer to the cliff edge and operation Yellowhammer.

I listened to You and Yours today.
There was a chap on there (who voted leave) who ran an exporting manufacturer who claimed that the government had given him no guidance on what paperwork was needed for customs after Brexit.

Another chap said that lorries would be waved through without checks

www.gov.uk/guidance/import-and-export-forms

For the EU, Brexit is an existential chance to prove itself to the rest of the world (as if it needed too). It's also a chance to impress some less enthusiastic members with the advantages of membership.

On the UK side, the only thing the world will learn from Brexit is how dysfunctional our democratic mechanism are, and how easy it is to get a place at the trough if you know the right people.

Oh crap. So DD’s partner who is an EU citizen who came over Jan 2018, has been working here and will be a full time student as of September, what’s his situation now? If he goes home at Christmas can he get back in? he was going to go with DD and work abroad for a year from 2020 and we were aware he might not be able to come back and spend her last year at University in the U.K. with her, but it hadn’t occurred to me there would be a problem before that.

This plus talk of insulin disruption is making me feel somewhat stressed.

Interesting Twitter thread

@Frances_Coppola

After freedom of movement ends on 31st Oct, presumably all passports will then have to be checked at the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland so those of EU nationals other than Irish citizens can be stamped? This will go down well...

@WEAYL

why?

@Frances_Coppola

because you can't tell the difference between an Irish citizen and any other EU citizen just by looking at them, obvs

@SimonFRCox

There’s no need to check. Existing UK law deems most EU citz / family entering UK from within common travel area to have been granted limited leave to remain (if they don’t already have indefinite leave).

@TimMorton2

Don’t think
@EmmandJDeSouza
sees it quite like that

@SimonFRCox

Under Article 4 of Immigration (Control of Entry through Republic of Ireland) Order 1972, non Irish cits are treated as if had been given leave to enter for 3 months. legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1972/1610/article/4/made

@WEAYL

I suppose the point is that Ireland won't stamp passports (or ID cards) of EU citz, so UK cannot identify overstayers, nor IE they take action against EU citz leaving Ireland who entered UK more than 3 months previously

@SimonFRCox

True. But HO planned in Feb to use e-passport gates for EU cits after a no-deal Brexit, so no passport stamps at ports facing outside CTA either.

It’s completely practical to deem everyone to have 3 months leave to enter, which means people are legally obliged to apply before expiry if they want to stay, with evidence of their UK entry (eg plane, train, ferry ticket) to show they didn’t overstay.

@Frances_Coppola

it does not seem to be what the new-look Home Office intends

@SimonFRCox

I’m not convinced - Patel’s Mail piece is too vague to gauge what policy she wants. Maybe she just wants headlines.

Anyway, it’s borderline impossible for HO to recruit and train even enough agency staff to interview and decide the 100,000 EU cits who arrive in UK every day.

@Frances_Coppola

I wouldn't bet on Patel just wanting headlines.

I agree about the impossibility, but this Government doesn't let such a minor problem as logistical impossibility bother it. This is not the only area where its current plans can't possibly work.

when they discover that they can't actually police that border, they will then apply pressure to Ireland to police it for them.

Ronan Delaney
@delexical

How? These EU citizens are resident in Ireland, own businesses and vehicles, are normal part of community and employ, work alongside and for Irish citizens from both IE & NI.

For example an Armagh builder employing Meath plumbers with Lithuanian subcontractors on Tyrone site. The Lithuanians live in Drogheda. How does the Irish state "police" who goes across the border to work on the Tyrone site?

@SimonFRCox

But if the builders are Ukrainian or Moldovan & on an Irish work permit, this is an issue now. The builders can do their shopping in Armagh but not work there.

How do Irish police that? Or British police similar?

Lightly I imagine.

What Frances has in mind, I suspect, was who gets admitted to Ireland - and who gets permission to work there. This is where the expectation currently is. But if UK says EU cits can’t work in UK without permission, then we have major assymetry.

@Frances_Coppola

That's exactly what I mean by "applying pressure to Ireland". It's not Ireland's responsibility to restrict who enters and works in their own country because the British want to end FOM without imposing controls on the Ireland/UK border.

it would be absolutely outrageous for Britain to demand that Ireland restrict FOM with the rest of the EU in order to keep the Ireland/UK border open. It amounts to a demand that Ireland leave the single market.

My grandfather was a butcher and I was brought up eating all sorts of things that probably go into pet food nowadays - tripe, sweetbreads, tongues, brains, hearts and pigs’s heads boiled to make soup and brawn. Sheep’s heads made stew and soup. Trotters were also eaten. Probably other things I’ve forgotten.
It was possible to buy most of these in butcher’s shops in the 1970s and 80s. When we were very poor I tried feeding them to my family who weren’t at all impressed.

Countries that do have a statute of limitations generally exclude murder, e.g. the USA does

and the period that clever / protected criminals have to escape before winning immunity for the most serious crimes
is much longer than the 10 years proposed for British soldiers

The whole idea of statute of limitations favours those who are sufficiently professional / lucky to escape their crime for enough years

Hence, it inherently favours the ruling class, or those doing their bidding

The original investigations in to many of the murders by British troops in NI,
particularly the Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy massacres, were a complete whitewash

It is too dangerous to allow one govt to whitewash murders by soldiers against civilians

• which would be war crimes if war had been declared -and

and a later govt to give immunity for them

The alternative - and more honest - approach would be to simply get rid of the notion of innocence, and lock people up on official say so.

After all, we've seen the right to silence disappear. We've seen double jeopardy disappear, so it's not really a great leap. We've seen how easy it is to off innocent civilians with zero comeback.

It's only when you look behind you, you realise how far we've come.

The Tory govt can fuck off with the idea of bullying Ireland into effectively abandoning FOM with the rest of the EU

They've failed to bully Ireland into leaving the SM, or into full Irexit

After No Deal, I expect the UK's tactics will be to continue to try bullying Ireland to "solve" Brexit
(possibly even using Loyalist paramilitaries to commit murders there, as they did during the Troubles)

This could continue for months or even years, however long it takes the govt to realise that Ireland, with the might of the EU behind it, can no longer be bullied

Or until a Labour govt takes over

During the Troubles, the security forces did indeed lock up anyone they thought guilty

And they tortured them, with the "five Techniques" among other less official methods

Beating up was a standard interrogation method, as reported by several police doctors called in to treat prisoners afterwards

In contrast, many British soldiers and police who committed murder were allowed to get away with it, because investigations were whitewashed by the authorities, who chose the investigators and the terms of the enquiry

"It's only when you look behind you, you realise how far we've come."

Yes, the govt has indicated it wants to bring in immunity for British soldiers from murder investigation

Any soldier called out to guard supplies, control civil disorder or root out dissidents / saboteurs ....
can now have even more confidence that he won't face trial if he decides to murder a few people, to scare off the others.

Any soldier called out to guard supplies, control civil disorder or root out dissidents / saboteurs can now have even more confidence that he won't face trial if he decides to murder a few people, to scare off the others.

Wow - more than 100% ! Impressive. If only doctors, nurses and teachers felt they had the same backing ...

I know we were told it was coming but BJ has now officially withdrawn UK officials from all EU meetings from 1st Sept.

Ffs

I know we were told it was coming but BJ has now officially withdrawn UK officials from all EU meetings from 1st Sept.

They'll be needed for his coronation, I imagine.

We're all dooooooomed. That's my opinion these days.

Brexit is almost just a cheeky little amuse bouche for climate change, antibiotic resistance and whatever horrific things capitalism makes out of AI.

Being told it was coming and it actually happening feels like two different things.
Not being facetious, but it's like when an expected death actually happens. You don't expect to suddenly be hit by shock and loss as you knew fine well it was coming (and might even be a 'release' all round) but you still are hit by those feelings anyhow.

I completely agree with 'it's not till you look back you realise how far we've come (away from a possibly-decent society led by half decent half accountable 'leaders)

They'll be needed for his coronation, I imagine
The Corpulent and Fecund Ayatollah de Pfiffer of Uxbridge and South Ruislip.

Omid Djalili, wrote a good thing I can't find now, about the Iranian Revolution and the brexit.

The Iranians have experience of a relatively liberal country which has a daft referendum which leads to you know what.

All the to be fair, the brexists advocate fewer Womens Rights than the Jurists.

@SwedishEdith This has always been the issue. They cannot possibly end FOM as proposed and have no hard border or border in the Irish Sea and also maintain the CTA.

"BJ has now officially withdrawn UK officials from all EU meetings from 1st Sept."

What is mildly reassuring is that if any of these meetings come to a vote, he has given Finland the authority to vote on our behalf.

A pretty safe, moderate choice, instead of Hungary with its populist govt and which is his only semi-ally in the EU

So DD’s partner who is an EU citizen who came over Jan 2018, has been working here and will be a full time student as of September, what’s his situation now? If he goes home at Christmas can he get back in? he was going to go with DD and work abroad for a year from 2020 and we were aware he might not be able to come back and spend her last year at University in the U.K. with her, but it hadn’t occurred to me there would be a problem before that.

He would be wise not to leave the country if there is still uncertainty by Christmas. He's got a month of other people trying out the new system ahead of him.

Best not to book travel until they've worked out what the new border policy is and how the hell they intend to implement it.

Generally lurking these days better for my MH . But had to do a name change this afternoon should I post again. It seems that some folk in other popular forum don’t like posts about Carrie’s Symonds life choices.

Oh shit, that is not going to go down at all well Thank you BCF.

Sorry, I meant Red, i’m Having a stress induced moment.

Thank you Flouncy, it did vaguely occur to me that there might be something possible there but then thought I had lost the plot.