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Brexit

Westminstenders: Charge!!!!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2019 16:15

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
“Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!” he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

“Forward, the Light Brigade!”
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flashed all their sabres bare,
Flashed as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wondered.
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right through the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reeled from the sabre stroke
Shattered and sundered.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell.
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
FishesaPlenty · 18/08/2019 19:05

And if the forms are not filled in, or incorrect? How many errors will it take to completely stuff the previously frictionless journey?

Oh I'm not arguing that it's all going to be smooth, just correcting misunderstandings when they occur.

It was the issue of customs and agri-food checks causing disruption on the roads of Kent that I was addressing. Those checks are for incoming freight. Outgoing goods are (if everything's done properly...) just checked off against a list of existing declarations and sent on their way to be dealt with at the other side.

I'm not saying there won't be disruption on the roads of Kent (there probably will), but that will be caused by those few extra minutes delay submitting paperwork and anybody getting the paperwork wrong, not checks on vehicles or goods.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 19:05

Imports
From reading leaked govt plans, it seems goods lorries won't be allowed to board ferries at Dover unless they are either empty - only going to collect imports from Calais - or have all the correct paperwork

The govt has a priority list for imports:
fresh food, meds & med devices, chemicals for water treatment, components for nuclear power stations

Their plans are to limit outgoing lorries if need be, to avoid either Dover or Calais becoming logjammed and imports being hindered.

So, unless there is are real cockups, imports to the UK should be ok, particularly essential ones,
even if some prices may rise later in the shops

Hopefully stockpiles won't even be needed, but they are reassuring to have, just in case.

UK Exports
This is the real problem:
exports are predicted to be greatly reduced, to the EU at least and possibly to some non-EU countries

My own (v large German) firm has been cutting UK firms out of its supply chain as much as possible, in anticipation
and I know most other German firms have been through a similar process of Brexit-prepping.

The serious cumulative effects will probably only show up after 6 months or so, e.g. in the balance of payments deficit

Veteran Leave campaigner RNorth is pessimistic on what being a 3rd country means for Uk exports:

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=87314

Whereas a UK enterprise can at the moment ship goods to EU Member States without formalities,

after Brexit they will find that their goods come under customs supervision when they enter the EU,
and can only be released for circulation by an importer, who must be an entity established (and resident) in the European Union.

This change has scarcely, if at all, been discussed in the UK
but
the change to requiring goods to be placed in charge of an EU-resident importer represents a major barrier to trade, and an active disincentive to EU buyers.

For instance, while currently a UK exporter to the EU retains legal responsibility for standards conformity, post-Brexit the importer becomes liable, with significant cost and legal implications.
.....
for the 20 percent or so of products where there are no EU harmonised standards, and mutual recognition of standards falls away,

UK enterprises will suddenly find themselves having to conform with a raft of local standards that many of them didn't even know existed.
And without that knowledge, they are hardly in a position to prepare.
........
http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86804

It is that, more than anything, which keeps the system working
– the fact that it is populated by people on all sides of the fence who know the rules, know what they are doing and are used to working with each other.

Now, take a day-one scenario where the UK, literally overnight, becomes a third country.
As far as officials in EU Member States go, in the absence of a deal between the UK and the EU, the UK will suddenly cease to exist.

The UK as an EU Member State, accessible on all the EU databases, will no longer be there.
And inclusion on third country databases is not automatic – nor uniform in respect of different sectors and products.

One presumes that a company marketing nuts and bolts for general engineering use will be able to market their goods in the EU.

But if they are intended for use in vehicles, and (especially) in aviation, export may not be permitted.

Vigilant border officials will have to check loads to ascertain the intended use of multi-use parts.

Any number of manufactured goods, which require third party certification, will also have to be intercepted and rejected,

and it goes without saying that
animals and foods of animal origin will not be permitted entry.

Even the pallets on which goods are shipped may be rejected if they have not undergone the correct timber treatment.

What we are dealing with here, therefore, is potential chaos.

Thousands of vehicles each day, crossing over to EU states will have to be checked,
and possibly thousands returned to the UK until shippers get used to the new rules, and know what to avoid

Jason118 · 18/08/2019 19:05

@HateIsNotGood a time limited back stop is not a back stop. Why do people keep saying that it can be removed and yet still be there?

Jason118 · 18/08/2019 19:09

@FishesaPlenty thanks for clearing that up.

woman19 · 18/08/2019 19:09

As well as Operation Great Famine.

There's this one: Operation Redford.

Which seems a bit unfair to that rather handsome old man. Wink

metro.co.uk/2019/03/21/more-than-3000-military-officers-on-standby-ahead-of-no-deal-brexit-8974604/

3000 squaddies isn't going to go very far.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 19:11

"Time-limited" until
either the magic tech has been approved by independent arbitrators,
or NI votes for reunification ?

May need a face-saving form of words.

However, ERG members have said several times that the backstop is only 1 issue with the WA:

For the ERG, the main issues are those preventing the UK going for a "race to the bottom"
and slashing workers' rights, environmental protection etc, which would give UK businesses a cost advantage over EU ones

orangeshoebox · 18/08/2019 19:11

iirc the border checks are before the ferry is boarded on both sides.
so- uk import checks in calais (or whichever ferry port) and eu import checks in dover (or other uk ferry port)

I'm a bit worried as dh currently travels a lot and border delays mean less time home with us and might mean struggle wrt childcare.

HateIsNotGood · 18/08/2019 19:15

OK Jason fair point, so maybe tinker enough with the WA so that there isn't a thing called a 'backstop' but new clauses instead. Clauses surrounding the 'border problems' that give a solution. Bellini has one and maybe others do too.

Coming up with solutions to a problem is far more productive than mud-slinging, accusing, blaming and hand-wringing.

woman19 · 18/08/2019 19:19

Flowers orangeshoebox
Unbelievable what they are doing to 65 m plus of us. Sad

Tap dance on Hazard good idea. Smile

Jason118 · 18/08/2019 19:19

@HateIsNotGood apologies, didn't meant to be so abrupt - the whole mess is tiring. Yes, border in the Irish Sea would work, as Bellini has proposed.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 19:20

As above, the backstop is a distraction from the main sticking points wrt the WA as far as the ERG are concerned
and they evidently control the Tory party now

BJ & co mostly don't give a damn about the backstop,
but their real red lines are being able to slash workers' rights and environmental rules

borntobequiet · 18/08/2019 19:25

Meant to post this link earlier. Dateline London, the best panel discussion on the BBC, on GNU and China.
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0007vh6/dateline-london-17082019

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 19:26

EORI (Economic Operator Registration and Identification) numbers are required for 3rd country businesses to trade with the EU, import or export.

From what I've read, EORI numbers must be issued by EU Member States
– so the UK govt won't be able to do this after Brexit

@fishes Do you know if that is correct ? Hmm
i.e. that any businesses that don't get at least an EORI before Brexit, will have to apply to wherever in the EU they want to trade ?

HateIsNotGood · 18/08/2019 19:27

As far as what ERG think (or not think) quite frankly, I don't give a damn. They are merely a group with influence but not absolute power. They are irrelevant right now and can have their reins 'pulled in' at a later date.

They do not 'define' Brexit, the UK or very many people - just like any other group. I wouldn't worry too much about them really.

woman19 · 18/08/2019 19:30

Quite agree on the ERG. BCF we traced their funding and links to SA and all sorts, way back.

ContinuityError · 18/08/2019 19:34

They do not 'define' Brexit

Yeah they do. Theresa appeased them with her red lines.

If the UK had followed a Norway style exit (unacceptable to the ERG) we’d be out by now.

jasjas1973 · 18/08/2019 19:35

Coming up with solutions to a problem is far more productive than mud-slingi

How about postponing Brexit until/if we can come up with workable solutions that do not a: leave us worse off. b: leave our european nr neighbours worse off too and c: protects the peace in NI.

Ken Clarke proposed this last year, he suggested a 5 year feasibility study, plans drawn up and put this back to the public.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 19:38

The ERG matter, because they control the government

BigChocFrenzy · 18/08/2019 19:39

and because the PM is one of them and owes them his job

borntobequiet · 18/08/2019 19:41

AFAIK the only solutions, short term, to the UK/EU border on the island of Ireland are a) keeping the whole of the UK in a customs union with the EU or b) keeping NI in such a union.
If the UK won’t go with a) or b), that’s it.
There aren’t any alternatives. That’s why we are where we are, and yes, it’s the ERG and DUP that have brought us to this impasse.

HateIsNotGood · 18/08/2019 19:42

Hopefully jas that will be included in the discussions this week too. All solutions should be welcome - of course it's not up to me as I'm not there, as probably none of us are.

And no, ERG does not define Brexit, maybe it does if you voted to Remain, but really they're not very representative of most Leave voters.

Peregrina · 18/08/2019 19:46

And no, ERG does not define Brexit, maybe it does if you voted to Remain, but really they're not very representative of most Leave voters.

Defining Brexit and being representative of most Leave voters are two different things. I am quite sure that they are very untypical of most Leave voters, being considerably more moneyed than most for a start. But May attempted to appease them with her Red Lines and the WA has been drawn up round them.

ContinuityError · 18/08/2019 19:50

And no, ERG does not define Brexit, maybe it does if you voted to Remain, but really they're not very representative of most Leave voters.

They don’t need to be representative of Leave voters.

As a significant group of MPs pulling the Government’s strings they have the power.

Well done for enabling them.

HateIsNotGood · 18/08/2019 19:52

I personally prefer a unified Ireland and keeping the UK's pre-EU 'special arrangements' we had as well as the 'peace' from GFA.

My solution is that all RoI and UK nationals can choose their national 'identities' in the case of a unified Ireland, so the NI Brits can be UK-identified if they wish. That would cover the 'legal' side.

In an ideal world.

jasjas1973 · 18/08/2019 19:55

ERG most def defines this Govts Brexit and thats all that matters.

Which why we can come up with workable solutions and our masters apparently, cannot.

As far as i can see, the UK is proceeding with Brexit because to halt it would be seen as a loss of face, there are no benefits, short or long term.
Which is also why the USA went ahead with ground troops in Vietnam.

Funnily enough the POTUS who went ahead with that disaster was also a Johnson.... Lyndon B.