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Brexit

Westministenders: Brexit Preppers Are Traitors Who Don't Believe Enough

947 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2019 12:31

Believe in Brexit. Brexit will be great. If only you believe.

So this is why the pound has tanked.
This is why the Treasury has opened the piggie bank for prep. This has sparked something of a backlash amongst moderates and remain MPs.
This will go towards managing that Channel Tunnel Congestion in Kent we weren't going to have.
And to stockpiling drugs which again was just hysteria.
This is why Gove, an MP who actually does have an eye for detail, has been drafted into the Cabinet Office.
This is why after his stint at DEFRA he is planning to buy tonnes of meat at a fixed price to keep farms in business.

Johnson has been to NI. But it wasn't a publicity stunt apparently. This is a man who posed for a photo when he resigned from the Foreign Office.

He was met with protests.

He also has a phonecall with the Leo Varadkar which was 'warm', before its been said by the DUP that Dublin must be a willing partner in a Brexit Deal.

Johnson is also still sticking to the line that technology can solve the border issue. Technology which will not be available until 2030 at the earliest by the government's own admission.

Johnson has refused to meet any European leaders until they drop the backstop (I note there are no EU meetings planned until mid October just a couple of weeks before the 31st anyway, so this kind of suits him and makes him look tough when really its been timetabled that way for a while. The EU themselves say that the 'next possible contact' with Johnson isn't until the G7 at the end of August anyway too).

However his 'Brexit Sherpa' David Frost - Olly Robbins successor HAS been meeting with EU officials still...

Dr Phillip Lee has confirmed today that he is actively considering his future as a Tory and defecting to the LDs. The rumour has been going for a while, and he is in the process of being deselected by his local party. To openly say it, is quite something though.

We also have the Brecon By Election today, which if the LD win as expected, would reduce the government's majority to just 1.

It is possible that Johnson will be leading a minority government very soon, if the cards fall the right way.

The speculation is rife that Johnson actively wants to force a GE. This hasn't been helped by Dominic Cummings has ordered the preparation of a Budget in the week starting Oct 7. Which would need to be voted for through parliament.

Votes on budget and other important issues are where not having a majority become crucial.

If a budget vote got stuck and provoked a GE it would perhaps land whilst Brexit Party Supporters had returned to the Tory party but perhaps before all the shit has start to hit the fan and people get really fed up.

And even if we do have no deal, when we DO have a deal, we will have to put a bill through parliament to implement it. Whilst everyone has focused on the backstop, no one has thought about this... which is pretty important.

It is remarkable that a No Deal Supporting Government are now seemingly planning for Project Fear.

And we were the crazy ones?

OP posts:
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prettybird · 04/08/2019 16:05

Ditto - personally can't stand her. I was merely pointing out that she wouldn't have the obstacle of a principle standing in her way Wink

Dh has just reminded me that he's said for some time that Ken Clarke should he the one to lead a Government of National Unity.

Icantreachthepretzels · 04/08/2019 16:07

Hammond can be PM with Starmer as Deputy. Ken Clarke as chancellor and Jo Swinson as Home secretary. SNP obviously gets minister for Scotland and choice of one of the other big departments. Plaid ditto (but for Wales). Caroline Lucas gets environment. Work out numbers of who to put where on a ratio of no of seats: cabinet positions.

They immediately ask for an extension on the grounds of holding a P.V - remain vs W.A (only existing deal available) with the understanding that this government will either revoke or sign the W.A immediately following the result and then call a proper general election so a properly elected government can lead us into our new future.

Or you know ... no deal. whichever.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 04/08/2019 16:09

Hammond can be PM

Fuck no

DGRossetti · 04/08/2019 16:13

.

Westministenders: Brexit Preppers Are Traitors Who Don't Believe Enough
Hazardtired · 04/08/2019 16:54

If, and it's a big if, we are in the position where MPs are working cross party to formulate a gov to stop no deal then its likely whoever is PM is only temporary.

howabout · 04/08/2019 16:57

DGR problem with that poster is along with £100m No Deal awareness campaign he also announced £2 bn immediate extra NHS spending.

If the Fantasy continuity Remain Cabinet is offering business as usual then I doubt they will have many takers.

This is Anand Menon's TedEx talk from the same conference as Nicola's. His question is "whose GDP growth is it"? For an awful lot of people who voted Brexit and were not "all in it together" a 15% drop in nothing makes no difference.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=1UrJIUxBQIM

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=1UrJIUxBQIM

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 04/08/2019 16:58

I think the PM has to be someone in HoC nowadays. They have to be someone who's been through an election process. I can't see the Lords being acceptable, and as for someone outside - nope. Why not bring back the Queen instead.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 04/08/2019 17:00

and as for someone outside - nope. Why not bring back the Queen instead.

And we all know who the headbangers would want in that position so I think being voted into the parliament should be a minimum requirement

Iambuffy · 04/08/2019 17:02

Cross party talks are too late.

Where were these motherfuckers 2 years ago....1 year ago....even 6 months ago!??

DGRossetti · 04/08/2019 17:02

DGR problem with that poster is along with £100m No Deal awareness campaign he also announced £2 bn immediate extra NHS spending.

So it's trust Boris week now ?

Sharing that on FB was interesting. A few US friends suddenly realised they are being well ripped off, if the NHS can do one for c. $12,000 (of course it would have cost a bit more in USD a few weeks back) and their average cost is $39,000 (although it's very state-dependant apparently).

You know the old song about "I've never met a nice South African" Hmm ? It could have a second verse, "I've never met an American who doesn't marvel at the NHS" ...

Cobblersandhogwash · 04/08/2019 17:11

Is there really a way back from this?

Westministenders: Brexit Preppers Are Traitors Who Don't Believe Enough
Justaboutdone · 04/08/2019 17:15

Labour will suffer more from No Deal than the Tories.

The people who will suffer most are traditionally Labour voters.

I will never vote for Labour again unless there is a tangible shift and they start actually doing the job of an opposition party.

If we No deal then Labour as it is has lost my vote forever.

You may love Corbyn, you may think he’s great.

I’m not a member. I never will be. But I am a traditional Labour voter and I like many others have deserted you.

And it’s only going to get worse whilst you have your head in the sand.

I don’t care about about any policies just now.

a party can say they will double tuition fees, cut spending in the NHS, and any other unpopular policy - I don’t care. If they will
Stop No Deal or Brexit then that’s enough for me.

Policies can wait until later - Brexit is all that matters.

DGRossetti · 04/08/2019 17:20

Is there really a way back from this?

Not really. It's established itself in our culture and sides have been taken.

I really can't recommend the documentary about the Ottomans for anyone who is curious about the next 100 years in the UK. Brexit is the final dying gasp of the British Empire. An Empire that has slowly been pushed back into it's original geographical origin where the native population hadn't yet realised it died decades ago.

I have a feeling Turkey will be a member of the EU long before England is considered for membership. Oh the irony.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 04/08/2019 17:25

Policies can wait until later - Brexit is all that matters.

I respectfully disagree

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 04/08/2019 17:27

Is there really a way back from this?

In contrast to DGR I'd say yes. If only because there has to be. The alternative is worse.

The way back is for these people, and anyone else official, to have the f* sued out of them or some kind of other official denunciation by a, even better, pro-Leave Prime Minister, say, for using that kind of language. It would not be acceptable inside the House of Commons. Why do the same people think it's acceptable outside?

We need standards upheld. The people who need to do that are the people at the top. It always annoys me how they expect people in poorer circumstance to be better than those given every advantage.

DGRossetti · 04/08/2019 17:27

If people are spooked by exchange rates now: You ain't seen nothing yet.

Who here (show of hands) recalls interest rates going up 6, 7 times in a day in the 90s ?

Ah. Happy days. All we need is a Blur v. Oasis chartspat, and I can rave all night.

www.irishtimes.com/news/world/brexit/chris-johns-the-tragic-death-of-fiscal-arithmetic-in-brexit-britain-1.3975378

irishtimes.com
Chris Johns: The tragic death of fiscal arithmetic in Brexit Britain
6-8 minutes

Britain is budgeting for Brexit: £2.1 billion (€2.3bn) being the latest announcement of cash devoted to no-deal planning. It’s not clear how much of that is new spending given the £4 billion they have already frittered away but, in any event, it’s likely to be small beer considering the budget boost being prepared by the new UK chancellor. In the fiscally illiterate minds of the new British cabinet there is a locked safe in the treasury where the ex-chancellor hid £27 billion in used fivers.

There isn’t any such cash pile. That £27 billion was a purely notional sum that Philip Hammond posited as the difference between two possibilities: the deficit target minus its probable outturn in the event of a negotiated Brexit. It was money he was prepared to use to cushion the economy against the negative effects of an agreed Brexit deal. Note the use of the words agreed and deal.

Arithmetic, let alone fiscal detail, is, of course, entirely beside the point. The point now is a no-deal Brexit at any cost. Members of the ERG faction – better now described as the core of the Tory party – now say they won’t accept the withdrawal agreement even if the backstop is dropped. How many times can it be said before the penny drops: nothing will ever satisfy these people. Eminent philosopher AC Grayling this week described Brexit as a suicide cult.

The Tory party’s war with itself over Europe goes back at least two generations. The battle lines of today were drawn long ago.

Enoch Powell, a Tory grandee who combined massive intellect with a hatred of the European project, wasn’t known for his fondness of immigrants. Margaret Thatcher’s official biographer, Charles Moore, credits Powell with the defeat of the Conservative government in the 1974 general election after the sitting Tory MP urged people to vote Labour on the grounds that it was the party opposed to EEC membership.

Another factor in then prime minister Ted Heath’s demise was his break with the Ulster Unionists following a suspension of Stormont. Some things change but many do not.
Forever war

This is a forever war: it will continue for as long as the Tory party exists. Britain is on its third post-Brexit referendum prime minister. There is a common theme running through much Brexit commentary: reality will one day dawn and Britain will be brought to its senses. Sadly, anybody who thinks reason will spontaneously emerge is as unaware of history as the Brexiteers.

Daily attacks on Brussels and the Irish Government are a clear pointer to a scapegoating strategy that is as dangerous as it is transparent.

And there is a strategy, a script straight from the Steve Bannon playbook: create chaos – even a national crisis – line up those scapegoats, call a general election, steal Nigel Farage’s votes by moving to his right and enjoy running against Jeremy Corbyn. All things considered it stands a reasonable chance of giving Boris Johnson at least five years as prime minister.

The problem with budgetary arithmetic is that it is one of those realities that eventually punches you in the face. And the reality of sterling’s renewed decline is a sharp reminder of what can happen if you promise to drive the economy over a cliff.

We might be tempted to ask why all this fiscal incontinence is necessary when Brexit with or (especially) without a deal is supposed to promise so much. Understanding comes with the realisation that hardcore Brexiteers know that the punch, the economic hit, is coming and don’t care. They have that victim-based strategy prepared. And have watched Donald Trump prepare for his re-election with similar policies, including massive fiscal expansion.

Money that does not exist will be spent and taxes cut. The Bank of England will have to print that cash and markets tapped for more borrowing.

The final figure will be orders of magnitude greater than £27 billion. Hammond has suggested £90 billion. There is a neat circle to all of this: the effects of Cameron/Osborne fiscal austerity helped to bring about Brexit. Now Brexit brings an end to austerity
Irish economy

On plausible estimates the Irish economy could be hit harder than the UK by no-deal. The British are clearly planning a big fiscal response. Shouldn’t we do the same?

We have to play by different rules, but one of the consequences of no-deal should, in my view, be a nod from the EU that a much larger than planned Irish budget deficit will be tolerated, if not welcomed. Noises from Brussels suggest that this is on the cards. Aid from the EU should also be on the same agenda as domestic help for the hardest hit sectors.

Powder, such as it is, needs to be kept dry and directed at the problems if and when they emerge.

Detailed planning for the myriad possibilities is pointless: wait for the storm and deal with it when it comes. I have argued several times that nothing much by way of budgetary changes should happen until we know more.

Do not underestimate how much Britain has changed, and how volatile things could become. Thatcher once said, “to enter into commercial obligations and treaties is an exercise of sovereignty, not a derogation from it”. For that she would, in today’s Britain, be labelled “an enemy of the people”.

howabout · 04/08/2019 17:28

a party can say they will double tuition fees, cut spending in the NHS, and any other unpopular policy - I don’t care. If they will
Stop No Deal or Brexit then that’s enough for me.

justaboutdone what about if the Remain strategy under Hammond Clark delivers all that and Brexit as well? Perfectly feasible if it provokes enough backlash.

Conversely once the Remain coalition has delivered Remain for you why would you continue to vote for it with those policies rather than a "traditional Labour agenda" whatever you consider that to be?

prettybird · 04/08/2019 17:29

Alex Salmond was pilloried for spending just over £1 million on publishing, communicating and disseminating "Scotland's Future"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/10691534/Alex-Salmonds-independence-blueprint-cost-Scottish-taxpayers-1.3m.html

Where is the Telegraph's equivalent excoriation of the planned profligacy of spending of £100 million on a public information exercise for No Deal preparations? Hmm No, I'm not holding my breath Wink

DGRossetti · 04/08/2019 17:38

In contrast to DGR I'd say yes. If only because there has to be. The alternative is worse.

Ah, magical thinking Grin !

The moment it was clear that the leave campaign were going to actively and deliberately lie, and not be held to account was when breach happened.

I know it's considered a bit off to try and generalise about Leavers. But the closest thing you can use as a proxy for a leaver is a complete ignorance of history.

This is a Reformation for the 21st century. And like Henry VIIIs reformation, which was really intended to be a private spat between King and Pope, it's been hijacked by fellow travellers who see the chance to impose their religion on a nation. Exactly the same as the radical protestants (who Henry originally used for kindling) usurped the Reformation. That's why we've gone from genteelly contemplating EEA/Norway/Lexit options to full on Holy-War Brexit.

And people on these threads - of all people - have seen it happen, day by day.

And it's not even started yet. We haven't yet seen the race purity laws that have been drafted and discussed. We've not seen the plans for deporting the unwelcome, and have yet to hear the speech where Boris solves the housing crisis by giving the houses seized from deportees to his cronies.

I'll carry on thinking the extreme, and come 1st November let's see how close I've been.

Justaboutdone · 04/08/2019 17:39

howabout - my point is that I am not thinking past Brexit.

If we Brexit, well more specifically No Deal all those policies will happen.

Once Brexit is decided one way or another would I vote for those policies - no i wouldn’t.

Would I want Hammond / Clarke as PM after Brexit- no as I don’t have the same beliefs.

Would I vote for Labour - no I wouldn’t.

I don’t actually know who I would vote for.

prettybird · 04/08/2019 17:39

DGR - I got my 1st mortgage in 1985, my 2nd house in 87 (fortunately a company move so they paid costs and bridging Smile). Put that house on the market in 1989 or 90, having left ICI, fortunately (Confused) a week after the market had crashed (although no one realised at the time) so that although I was looking at houses on the other side of the country, for which I would have had to stretch my budget, I didn't/couldn't buy, so didn't end up in negative equity. Ended up eventually selling in 1994 Shock (having by that time moved back up to Scotland to be with now dh Smile)

I can remember paying £300+/month on a £26,000 (endowment) mortgage Shock

DGRossetti · 04/08/2019 17:51

For some reason this link has started popping up on my news feed

www.gov.uk/staff-redundant/redundancy-consultations

Not quite sure if there's a story behind it yet.

Hoooo · 04/08/2019 18:01

We are so fucked

DGRossetti · 04/08/2019 18:04

We are so fucked

Not as much as our children.

DarkAtEndOfUK · 04/08/2019 18:05

Ah, magical thinking!
Probably. Or optimism. Or someone who understands that one of the causes of shit happening is when people give up and let it happen, and thus enable it. This can still be rolled back. Unfortunately it takes people at the top to do it. Which is where we need our decent politicians to act.

We haven't yet seen the race purity laws that have been drafted and discussed. We've not seen the plans for deporting the unwelcome, and have yet to hear the speech where Boris solves the housing crisis by giving the houses seized from deportees to his cronies.
I'll probably be among the unwelcome, not being well-off. That's why I really don't want this to happen.