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Brexit

Westministenders: Brexit Preppers Are Traitors Who Don't Believe Enough

947 replies

RedToothBrush · 01/08/2019 12:31

Believe in Brexit. Brexit will be great. If only you believe.

So this is why the pound has tanked.
This is why the Treasury has opened the piggie bank for prep. This has sparked something of a backlash amongst moderates and remain MPs.
This will go towards managing that Channel Tunnel Congestion in Kent we weren't going to have.
And to stockpiling drugs which again was just hysteria.
This is why Gove, an MP who actually does have an eye for detail, has been drafted into the Cabinet Office.
This is why after his stint at DEFRA he is planning to buy tonnes of meat at a fixed price to keep farms in business.

Johnson has been to NI. But it wasn't a publicity stunt apparently. This is a man who posed for a photo when he resigned from the Foreign Office.

He was met with protests.

He also has a phonecall with the Leo Varadkar which was 'warm', before its been said by the DUP that Dublin must be a willing partner in a Brexit Deal.

Johnson is also still sticking to the line that technology can solve the border issue. Technology which will not be available until 2030 at the earliest by the government's own admission.

Johnson has refused to meet any European leaders until they drop the backstop (I note there are no EU meetings planned until mid October just a couple of weeks before the 31st anyway, so this kind of suits him and makes him look tough when really its been timetabled that way for a while. The EU themselves say that the 'next possible contact' with Johnson isn't until the G7 at the end of August anyway too).

However his 'Brexit Sherpa' David Frost - Olly Robbins successor HAS been meeting with EU officials still...

Dr Phillip Lee has confirmed today that he is actively considering his future as a Tory and defecting to the LDs. The rumour has been going for a while, and he is in the process of being deselected by his local party. To openly say it, is quite something though.

We also have the Brecon By Election today, which if the LD win as expected, would reduce the government's majority to just 1.

It is possible that Johnson will be leading a minority government very soon, if the cards fall the right way.

The speculation is rife that Johnson actively wants to force a GE. This hasn't been helped by Dominic Cummings has ordered the preparation of a Budget in the week starting Oct 7. Which would need to be voted for through parliament.

Votes on budget and other important issues are where not having a majority become crucial.

If a budget vote got stuck and provoked a GE it would perhaps land whilst Brexit Party Supporters had returned to the Tory party but perhaps before all the shit has start to hit the fan and people get really fed up.

And even if we do have no deal, when we DO have a deal, we will have to put a bill through parliament to implement it. Whilst everyone has focused on the backstop, no one has thought about this... which is pretty important.

It is remarkable that a No Deal Supporting Government are now seemingly planning for Project Fear.

And we were the crazy ones?

OP posts:
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Iambuffy · 03/08/2019 12:51

I will, thanks peregrina

Exactly DG thats pretty much where I am.

Peregrina · 03/08/2019 12:54

That unherd article made for disappointing reading Howabout. It made an assertion that the Tories had taken over from Labour, but it didn't provide evidence.

One of Labour's problems in the North of England and South Wales was that it was very much identified with heavy industry. This has now gone, leaving the voters there without a ready means of identifying themselves and with a party.

Plaid Cymru doesn't really equate to the SNP, being traditionally quite tied to the Welsh language issue, but there are staunchly Welsh people who don't speak the language.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/08/2019 12:58

"why becoming Full Remain and / or dumping Corbyn won't work"

(I can't read the link)

All this frantic justification of why a party should tell over 70% of its voters to fuck off

How that will win a GE ? Hmm

  • the assumption seems to be that Labour Remainers have nowwhere else to go, so will just lump it

The evidence doesn't support that
Former Labour voters on these threads don't either

Labour did well in 2017 because Remainers - especially students - convinced themselves somehow that Corbyn was Remainy
That has been exposed as fantasy, so the 70%+ are pissed off and unreliable for Labour

Labour do better when the few prominant Lexiters don't remind Remain voters that they just want them to STFU

BigChocFrenzy · 03/08/2019 12:59

If winning were the real aim of Lexiters, then they'd dump Brexit

However, the Lexiter priority is Brexit, not Labour
Any party that lets a tiny clique betray over 70% of its voters deserves the electoral oblivion it will probably suffer for the next 20 years or so

Remember how the previous 20 years of Tory rulle in the 80s and 90s irrevocably changed Britain
Labour have never been able to roll that back
Another 20 years and Labour will become irrelevant to the UK, probably then just Wangland = England & Wales

JustAnotherPoster00 · 03/08/2019 13:03

Here you go BCF

I’ve always hated “Irish jokes”. Having an Irish mother, I’ve always been aware how they were used to denigrate Irish people and undermine the cause of Irish nationalism. There’s one joke, though, I’ve always enjoyed. It’s the one where the guy asks the Irishman for directions, to which he replies: “Well, if I were you I wouldn’t be starting from here.” It’s stuck with me because it offers a real life lesson that I find myself regularly referring to.

Back in the 1980s and 90s, it’s a lesson I should have heeded, as I argued and canvassed for a socialist Labour government when, in hindsight, it was clear that British voters had been wowed by Margaret Thatcher’s strong leadership and populist policies. For my arguments to get through, I shouldn’t have been starting from there. People such as Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell recognised this and modified Labour’s message to resonate with these same voters to spectacular effect.

This byelection result has narrowed the Tories’ route to election victory

Yet, seeing Campbell announce this week that he’s given up on the Labour party, mainly because under Jeremy Corbyn it won’t go all-out remain, I couldn’t help wondering if he shouldn’t also take heed of that Irish lesson. Because if you want Labour to be a pure remain party – against the wishes of so many of its marginalised, traditional voters, particularly those working-class people in the north – then don’t do it after a referendum in which those same voters had the once-in-a-lifetime chance to actually make their vote count. Don’t choose this moment to tell millions of long-standing party supporters that you’re ignoring their deeply held views.

I, like Campbell, am a remainer. I also still want to reverse Brexit. But you can’t stick two fingers up to a huge chunk of your voter base and not expect a negative reaction. It’s why he spent so many years triangulating in the 1990s, trying to work out a middle way. How ironic that Campbell now condems Corbyn for doing exactly the same.

Corbyn is facing far more flak for this today than New Labour did 20 years ago, and that’s because many on the right of the party don’t actually want to see him win power. (If you want proof, look at Stephen Kinnock’s stony-faced reaction, captured by a BBC documentary camera, as the news broke that Theresa May had lost her majority in the 2017 election.) Many of those in and around politics still yearn for the Blair-Brown era when they were close to power. They’re not worried about the damage Labour would suffer by going “full remain”: an election defeat would merely hasten the day when the hated Corbyn steps down.

Others say that now Boris Johnson has energised the hard right and united his cabinet over no deal, Corbyn must do the same – but for remain. This is nonsense. Johnson has already seen the damage caused by his rash decision-making. He’s boxed himself in by refusing to talk to European leaders until they ditch the backstop; he’s been slapped down by Nicola Sturgeon and learned that his stance is boosting the cause of Scottish independence; he’s faced angry Welsh farmers whose livelihood is threatened by no-deal tariffs; and he’s gone to Northern Ireland, where he’s been told that the peace process is at risk. And in Brecon and Radnorshire he’s tasted defeat after just a week in office, losing an 8,000 majority. Far from rallying supporters, his Brexit stance has just piled up his problems. He can’t even rely on the party’s hardcore Brexiteers to support any deal he might achieve with Europe.

One thing I do appreciate about Johnson, though, is his optimism. I’m an optimist too. In fact, the more I see of him, the more optimistic I get.

An early election – before we’ve left the EU – looks ever more likely. And it will be a choice between Johnson’s no-deal Brexit, and Labour, which has pledged to keep remain on the table but while still showing a sensitivity to leave voters. The precise stance depends on the election’s timing (as it must), but it’s clear that Labour is against no deal, and open to the possibility of negotiating a Labour Brexit, while promising a referendum on any deal that is struck. I’m no fan of a Labour Brexit, but, like I say, I wouldn’t be starting from here, and like it or not a majority of people voted for us to leave the EU.

That policy didn’t work in this year’s European elections, when it paid to have a clear message on leave or remain. Labour finished third, behind the Brexit party and the Liberal Democrats, a result that freaked out many Corbyn supporters. But these elections are notorious for being a repository for protest votes. The election was a proxy referendum, people voted along Brexit lines. There was no nuance. The policies that have made Corbyn so popular were not on the ballot: anti-austerity, support for public services, renationalisation, and fairer taxes for the richest. In a general election, the voters would face a simple choice: back Boris Johnson and the no-deal extremists, or back Labour and the chance to remain.

‘Others say now that Boris Johnson has energised the hard right and united his cabinet over no deal Corbyn must do the same – but for remain. This is nonsense.’ Photograph: Reuters
Of course, if it’s all so rosy, people will ask why the party isn’t way ahead in the polls, especially against this divided and useless government. But now, with the nation in crisis, it’s not that easy to forge ahead. It could just as easily be said: if remain is so great, why isn’t the demand for a People’s Vote way ahead in the polls, especially set against such divisive and useless Brexit negotiations for the past three years?

And I’d also say: cast your mind back just two years to a divided opposition party 20 points behind in the polls, which under Corbyn all but made up the gap in a few short weeks of general election campaigning. The situation may not be exactly the same today (let’s face it, Johnson will be a far better campaigner than May, though, like her when she called the election, he’s had the almost undivided loyalty of the national press so far). But he is untested in a battle for mainstream voters.

The last time the Tories won an election – the only time they’ve won in the past 27 years – they had a great soundbite that struck home in the last few days of the 2015 campaign: Labour, in alliance with the Scottish National party, would “bankrupt Britain and break up Britain”. Today, who would break up Britain? Johnson and his insistence on a hard Brexit that risks Scottish independence and Irish reunification. Who will bankrupt Britain? Again, Johnson and his no-deal tactics, which the Bank of England has warned would lead to an “instantaneous shock” to the economy.

An election victory is no easy feat, it never is, but to those who genuinely want a Labour victory, do not lose hope. In 2014, at the previous European elections, the Conservatives came in third place. Within a year, they were voted into government with a majority.

Maybe here’s not such a bad place to start from.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/08/2019 13:06

DG Revoke needs no faith from the EU
The ECJ has ruled we can unilaterally Revoke

Of course it won't be as if A50 and the referendum never happened
Nothing can turn back the clock back and bring back lost business and agency HQs

However, Revoke at least stops us crashing over the cliff
and stops years of negotiating from a weak position, with the EU and every other bloc or major trading country

However, as I've thought since 2017, No Deal remains the default; hence will probably happen

If it does, everyone for themselves:
For better off Remainers, anyone but Labour - any Remainer would be massively pissed at higher taxes to pay for Brexshit
Fuck Labour anyway, since they told Remainers to fuck off

BigChocFrenzy · 03/08/2019 13:08

poster A party that tells over 70% of its voters to fuck off is doomed

Juells · 03/08/2019 13:08

@lonelyplanetmum

Recently I checked and she is now saying "The Tories need to solve this mess they created" . On the one hand that's a bit rich (as she was very proactive in recruiting Leave votes in the ref.), however even she seems to be acknowledging what a mess it is.

I bet it will morph into 'this mess that T May created'. Along with it all being the fault of the Irish for being so difficult about the border.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... news.sky.com/story/us-says-no-free-trade-deal-with-uk-unless-digital-tax-scrapped-report-11776240 Trump doesn't even blink as he threatens to abandon talks about the wonderful trade deal he claimed was available the second the UK left that horrible odious EU 🙄

JustAnotherPoster00 · 03/08/2019 13:10

How are they telling them to fuck off? PV and campaign to remain if Tory deal/no deal, Labour deal still subject to a PV

Iambuffy · 03/08/2019 13:18

I've been saying this for some time...

...but the really nasty anti Irish stuff hasn't even begun...

Juells · 03/08/2019 13:23

...but the really nasty anti Irish stuff hasn't even begun...

Arlene Foster is trying to ramp it up, though. I saw her a couple of nights ago saying that "Varadkar needs to tone down the rhetoric". Our politicians walk on eggshells around the DUP and the UUP, knowing how they love a fight. If you sewed your mouth shut in order not to cause offence, they'd claim you were not talking in an antagonistic manner.

HesterThrale · 03/08/2019 13:28

Thanks howabout re the opinion poll. So the Boris bounce has come down to earth already?

And Justanother re Swinson resigning! Haha ... But I think the poll was done before the Brecon result. Maybe LD will go back up?

In the end, they’re just opinion polls and their relevance seems to last a very short time.

TheElementsSong · 03/08/2019 13:29

The AIBU thread just gets more and more batshit. And more abs more examples of selective Leaver blindness to each other’s posts, all content to worship at the altar of No Deal Brexit. Can we petition MNHQ to let that thread go beyond 1000 posts? I like having every conceivable example of Brexitannian bonkersness conveniently corralled in one Cabinet of Curiosities.

howabout · 03/08/2019 13:36

“Well, if I were you I wouldn’t be starting from here.”

In that vein, the other thought experiment I run when considering the clamours for non-Corbyn Labour Remain is "why did RedEd not win and what would have happened if he had"?

This article (same author as pp) seeks to answer the second part of the question.

unherd.com/2019/03/where-would-the-left-be-without-brexit/

However it doesn't address the core of the problem which DGR alludes to. Yes Brexit could have been avoided if Milliband had been elected and yes there would have been incremental changes to mitigate some of the worst excesses of coalition austerity. However people chose not to vote for him.

Why? I did vote for him so these are only guesses:

  1. he was not radical enough
  2. he was too radical
  3. Gove strategy was ace at bribing back swing LibDem profs with bribes on Help to Buy etc in key marginals
  4. Leftish English voters don't want to be run by the SNP - Scottish Labour running English Labour under Blair/Brown/Alexander/Darling was bad enough
  5. people care more about getting out of the EU on the Left than is given credit for.

If any of these are true then I cannot see how a centre Labour Remain strategy works.

Moomoo1975 · 03/08/2019 13:36

He had a warm phone conversation with Leo Varadkar, but Leo invited him to a face to face meeting which was ignored by Boris.J.

Socksontheradiator · 03/08/2019 13:38

It also might be worth printing it out, because if there is no deal, and everything goes tits up, they will all deny saying that they knew exactly what they were voting for. And I can see the thread being pulled at some stage.

Socksontheradiator · 03/08/2019 13:39

@TheElementsSong my post in response to yours

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 03/08/2019 13:44

Iambuffy I’ve been floored by the amount of anti-Celtic-peoples generally coming out of the woodwork. Wales and Scotland have regularly been subjects too.

What do these people want? A world entirely emptied of anything but themselves - and maybe a telly?

DGRossetti · 03/08/2019 13:45

DG Revoke needs no faith from the EU

Mark Thomas sometimes jokes after a particularly barbed bit of atheism ... What can I say, if God existed - he would

In a similar vein, if revoke were to happen, it would have. A reverse Occam shows that the moving parts needed to secure a revoke are so complex as to be considered chaotic. Whereas on the other end of the scale, no-deal needs nothing.

Even now, when it's clear that Boris is out of control, we are only hearing about people who "might" defect. Who "might" vote against. I have less than zero faith that the HoC will do anything. Even if it could.

When I was growing up, my top two front teeth were slightly askew. My DM and I kept needling my dentist about putting them straight, and he kept saying it was too soon, and he wanted them to grow a bit more before he fitted a brace. Eventually, aged, 16, he said "Oh, no. It's too late now - we should have done that 8 years ago.". He then explained to my DM that he hated fiddling with strong healthy teeth. As mine were perfect in every respect with no bite problems, there was no need for a brace. In hindsight, at 35+ years, he was right, and I am grateful.

Brexit is like my teeth - too strong to move now.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 03/08/2019 13:46

Anti-Celtic-peoples hate that should have been.

Iambuffy · 03/08/2019 13:52

dark well, get ready for much, much worse...

wheresmymojo · 03/08/2019 13:53

Re Ed Miliband. I was much more of a floating voter at that time with much less political knowledge.

I remember it being a very close thing for me and I was going back and forth between the three parties right up to being in the polling booth.

In the end I voted Lib Dem. From memory I think I was swayed away from Labour by the messaging in the media about Labour not being 'capable' or 'trustworthy' with the economy. I think I also saw DC as more statesman like than EM. In hindsight, with more knowledge this was all media manipulation.

On that basis I was reasonably okay with a Tory/Lib Dem coalition. I felt the Tories were safe hands with the economy and the Lib Dem's were curtailing the worst of Tory heartlessness.

Given a re-run I would vote for EM (but not Jeremy Corbyn).

HesterThrale · 03/08/2019 13:55

Did anyone see David Blanchflower being interviewed on C4 News? the other day? (Sorry I can’t find a clip/link). I’m sure he said that not only could Brexit cause a UK recession, but trigger a world slowdown.

He thinks we’re better off in the EU.

There are some who think he should be the next Governor of the Bank of England.

What’s happening about that anyway? And exactly when is Mark Carney going?

www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/the-man-who-should-become-the-next-governor-of-the-bank-of-england

Peregrina · 03/08/2019 13:57

Wasn't David Blanchflower one of the few to see the 2008 recession coming? (I haven't read the link if it says that there.)

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