Westministenders: Brexit Preppers Are Traitors Who Don't Believe Enough

[RedToothBrush]

Believe in Brexit. Brexit will be great. If only you believe.

So this is why the pound has tanked.
This is why the Treasury has opened the piggie bank for prep. This has sparked something of a backlash amongst moderates and remain MPs.
This will go towards managing that Channel Tunnel Congestion in Kent we weren't going to have.
And to stockpiling drugs which again was just hysteria.
This is why Gove, an MP who actually does have an eye for detail, has been drafted into the Cabinet Office.
This is why after his stint at DEFRA he is planning to buy tonnes of meat at a fixed price to keep farms in business.

Johnson has been to NI. But it wasn't a publicity stunt apparently. This is a man who posed for a photo when he resigned from the Foreign Office.

He was met with protests.

He also has a phonecall with the Leo Varadkar which was 'warm', before its been said by the DUP that Dublin must be a willing partner in a Brexit Deal.

Johnson is also still sticking to the line that technology can solve the border issue. Technology which will not be available until 2030 at the earliest by the government's own admission.

Johnson has refused to meet any European leaders until they drop the backstop (I note there are no EU meetings planned until mid October just a couple of weeks before the 31st anyway, so this kind of suits him and makes him look tough when really its been timetabled that way for a while. The EU themselves say that the 'next possible contact' with Johnson isn't until the G7 at the end of August anyway too).

However his 'Brexit Sherpa' David Frost - Olly Robbins successor HAS been meeting with EU officials still...

Dr Phillip Lee has confirmed today that he is actively considering his future as a Tory and defecting to the LDs. The rumour has been going for a while, and he is in the process of being deselected by his local party. To openly say it, is quite something though.

We also have the Brecon By Election today, which if the LD win as expected, would reduce the government's majority to just 1.

It is possible that Johnson will be leading a minority government very soon, if the cards fall the right way.

The speculation is rife that Johnson actively wants to force a GE. This hasn't been helped by Dominic Cummings has ordered the preparation of a Budget in the week starting Oct 7. Which would need to be voted for through parliament.

Votes on budget and other important issues are where not having a majority become crucial.

If a budget vote got stuck and provoked a GE it would perhaps land whilst Brexit Party Supporters had returned to the Tory party but perhaps before all the shit has start to hit the fan and people get really fed up.

And even if we do have no deal, when we DO have a deal, we will have to put a bill through parliament to implement it. Whilst everyone has focused on the backstop, no one has thought about this... which is pretty important.

It is remarkable that a No Deal Supporting Government are now seemingly planning for Project Fear.

And we were the crazy ones?

So Frank Field is following in the footsteps of Gorgeous George Galloway: creating a one man party in his own image

(I am soooo over-using today! )

Guessing Frank Field is very very peed off with Labour or he would just have retired gracefully. I wonder if he reflects Lexiters more generally where he is? His 6 point manifesto is all about social issues which is where Labour should all be rather than obsessing about a non-Brexit position.

justanother
I'm hoping the Lib Dems do the same in any Lab/Con marginal
I am in this position but won't vote Labour because a vote for Corbyn isn't any better re Brexit than a vote for BJ, it is just a different kind of bad.
If Labour had a different leader Tom Watson, Kier Starmer, Yevette Cooper then I would vote for them. But Corbyn was the first person to say article 50 should be revoked and he hasn't changed his mind since.
Overall I don't want the rest of Corbyn's policies and he gives me no reason to hold my nose and vote for him anyway.

Guessing Frank Field is very very peed off with Labour or he would just have retired gracefully.

He lost a VONC by his CLP because he backed TM's Brexit

dreich

Really you think Corbyn's PV at all cost Remain against a Tory deal is as bad as Johnsons NoDeal rhetoric?

You feel you cant get behind which part of Labours policies?

Out of the 3 you mentioned the only one the membership might get behind is Starmer, Watson is probably going to lose a VONC in his own CLP, the one's to watch for the future leadership in my opinion is either Clive Lewis or Laura Pidcock a lot of the membership would be happy with either of those 2 but more so Pidcock if she carries on being as good as she is

I don't think it makes any difference whether we "No Deal" or "Keep negotiating" at this point. The continuing uncertainty is becoming as damaging as even an unmitigated No Deal, although the effect is more protracted. I prefer No Deal or even Remain to May's Deal and doubt Labour could do better. I don't think I am unrepresentative of the Lexit vote if the performance of the Brexit Party in the EU elections in the North of England is a guide.

BCF and mother The WA did not provide a path to an end of the negotiations any more than No Deal would. For an economy the size of the UK "Norway minus / plus" would not be stable and eventually calls for Brexit / Rejoin would reignite. The EU would also naturally reach the point of wanting / needing to pull further apart.

I hear what you say on trust Louise. Labour would have to run the line that the public deserve a second say now that the 2 options are clearer. I am not convinced it would work but I think it is better than pretending there is some Unicorn all things to all people Deal available which is better than Remain.

dreich we are polar opposites. I like Corbynism and could live with Remain to get it. Dumping economic reform and Brexit gives me no reason to vote Labour.

Frank Field did not jump because he was pushed anotherposter. What reason would anyone have for voting for Starmer?

*Frank Field did not jump because he was pushed anotherposter8

Um if you say so lets not let facts get in the way

Personally I wouldnt vote for Starmer but I think having performed well in the SC and not gone along with the failed coup attempts his profile is high enough that he could possibly bridge the gap between the Blairite/Corbyn factions and be sufficiently 'centrist' for the Blairites

What reason would anyone have for voting for Starmer?

I also meant in the context of if it was a battle between Watson, Cooper and Starmer

I'm not the person you were aiming the question at but having voted Labour previously I wouldn't vote for the current Labour manifesto.

I genuinely think that the combination of pledges in that manifesto would be a economic disaster for the UK on a scale not dissimilar to no deal.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with moving towards some of these policies over time - but not in a four year period. It would be too much of a change in too short a timeframe IMO.

mojo I dont think they plan to get it all done in the first term but it shows the direction of travel to a much fairer and equal Britain, I'm a firm believer in Keynesian economics so I'll respectfully disagree with your economic disaster idea

Louise Our system is constitutionally a Parliamentary system
and MPs are not bound by election manifesto or referandum promises at all

• they dump manifestos whenever convenient, or to be fair when corcumstances change

The changed circumstances are:

(most of) those who promised that wewould "hold all the cards" the day fter the referendum and have "the easiest trade deal in history"
now realise how horrendously difficult and complicated Brexit would be

and that No Deal produces the worst possible circumstances - Uk desperate, economy crashing, shortages etc -
under which to try to negotiate replacements both for our deal with the EU and for our deals with all the other countries in the world

Most other countries would have us over a barrel and drive the hardest possible deals

Many - like Canada - have said they probably won't negotiate after No Deal, because the UK plans to set zero tariffs for many goods
Canada, like many other countries selling those tyoes of goods, would never get a better deal thn zero tariffs for their goods, while still (legally) imposing WTO tariffs on UK goods !

I'm also a believer in Keynesian economics.

My issue isn't the spending element, it's the combination of impacts on big business and key business decision makers.

Significant increase in corporation tax at the same time as significant increase in salary bills via removal of zero hours contracts and living wage.

Then the tax increase for higher earners plus an additional 'fat cat' tax.

The former would put a significant strain on businesses which I think they could adapt to over time but if done too quickly would result in large scale cutbacks.

The latter, combined with the former, would mean key decision makers in those businesses would potentially be additionally motivated to relocate out of the UK.

Again - fine with the direction of travel but my concern would be that the party who are decidedly further left than they have been before would want to see a faster paced change than would benefit the country as a whole.

The problem is, so many people think of No Deal as a "clean break" when it would be the most ldrawn-out and painful process of all

If Brexit is ever to work, it would have to be a long process, not an abrupt event,
during which Britain is parked in a safeish place while it works out all its major future trade relationships

That could mean parking the UK for at least 10 years in a special 3rd EEA pillar, with SM and a CU agreement,
but with all countries aware that this is just an interim parking spot before going elsewhere

This is rather like RNorth's Flexcit, where he proposed forming a completely new trading relationship with the EU and world, but first joining EFTA in order to work all this out with minimum pain and damage

(The Tories have posioned EFTA against us, hence the 3rd EEA pillar)

Laura Piddock isn't cutting through much on my radar.

I used to think Clive Lewis was a good future prospect but he often conducts himself as a nasty piece of work. Doesn't matter much whether my perception is accurate because if it sticks in my sympathetic mind it will destroy him with the general public.

That could mean parking the UK for at least 10 years in a special 3rd EEA pillar, with SM and a CU agreement

I think we need to be wary of assuming the EU will do anything to be nice to the UK. Especially if it starts to look like the UK has managed to wangle "cake and eat it" just by it's intransigence and refusal to accept it's own situation.

I have a nasty feeling that notion is somehow driving team Boris - an anticipation that in order to avoid a no deal, the EU will turn around and give the UK access to the SM and CU without any oversight or strings attached. And that team Boris probably imagine that because team Trump (who have fuck all to lose) are telling them that.

How some see the Brecon result

"This was a safe Tory seat, they had a majority of 8k. The fact the
@LibDems won this Tory seat is further evidence that LibDems are yellow Tories."

^The fact the
@LibDems won this Tory seat is further evidence that LibDems are yellow Tories."^

So was it the Brexit stance which swung it, if that's the case? I don't think Boris Johnson helped them by letting them believe that the lamb market would be destroyed.

My issues are very similar to mojo but I'm not a Labour voter I never have been so I'm not someone the party needs to appeal to.
Apart from the query about whether Lib Dem. voters would give their vote to Labour.

My DH who while also a centrist is to the right of me described it as Brexit leading to Singapore (bj) or Brexit leading to Venezuela (Corbyn) This is an exaggerated version of the truth but neither is a good end result.

I spent too long working in corrupt north of England local authority to have any enthusiasm for old Labour. ( I also don't think Glasgow was that well served by them)
I don't want lots of money the country doesn't have spent of nationalizing stuff, I don't want large taxes on business at the same time as they are struggling with Brexit. I am also struggling to see where the money for all these pledges come from, particularly post Brexit.

No Deal would be drawing out Brexit longer than any other option and with the maximum pain & humiliation for Britain In fact, the only option without years of negotiations under chaos is Revoke!

It’s precisely this message that those promoting Remain need to get across! If you want Brexit to “go away”, revoking is by far the best option. Too many people are still under the apprehension that we’ll be able to make a “clean break” on 31 October and put Brexit behind us.

It’s precisely this message that those promoting Remain need to get across! If you want Brexit to “go away”, revoking is by far the best option. Too many people are still under the apprehension that we’ll be able to make a “clean break” on 31 October and put Brexit behind us.

I think it's too late at this stage in the game. It's no deal or no deal. There is a minuscule chance of no deal as well. But I reckon no deal will swing it.

Or to put it another way, no-deal is neck and neck with no-deal.

The Lib dems are yellow Tories, SNP are tartan Tories, Blairities are red Tories is just the flip side of the true Brexiteer coin.
The Tories don't own the center or even right of center ground in UK politics.
There is no particular moral virtue in being on the hard left.