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Brexit

Westministenders: The One Where Everyone is an Election Expert For 3 Days

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 24/05/2019 17:40

The Vote has been cast.

The PM has quit. SHOCK!

We now face The Big Wait.

Waiting for the results. Waiting for the new leader. Waiting for a new direction.

Turnout looks likely to be up overall compared to 2014. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing isn't clear.

At this stage realistically the only definite thing that I think you can actually speculate is the LDs have done very well indeed. Turnout is up in all traditional LD areas and remain areas in general. Though some LDs are getting a little carried away.

Does this mean that the Brexit Party will do badly? No. Its merely a reflection of demographic polarisation. And it may indeed help the Brexit Party ironically. It does suggest that Labour hasn't done well in the north (difference with 2014 turnouts worst in Labour areas) and there are hints that the Cons have done badly (Lincolnshire turnout for the locals was lower than for the EU elections). Something is happening in Wales. But no one seems to really understand what. Its gone 'rogue'!

Plus there are far more leave areas than remain ones. The increases in turnout possibly aren't enough to make a significant dent on the Brexit Party lead.

Not much of an increase in turnout in places like Derby, Middlesbrough, Hartlepool, Basildon, Leigh - which all have high leave figures suggest that the Brexit Party are not motivated those they persuaded to the polls for the first time in 2016 for the Ref to vote. Instead it means they can only increase their vote share with a further collapse in the Lab / Con vote from 2014. The question with this is how close were UKIP to the ceiling vote? If you didn't go with UKIP in 2014 would the ref change that? Does this mark it harder for them to hit close to 38% vote share? Argueably yes - but don't get too excited yet either. It doesn't mean they won't do very well, if there is a Lab/Con vote collaspe like the locals. I still would not be surprised by a mid-thirties result.

Psychologically the popular vote matters. This might be important for the future. The vote of those extra referedum voters hasn't been motivated by another protest vote under Farage. Who is going to try and court them? This affects the direction of all the parties.

The real issue is how the seats split down. With the vote fragmented between the LDs, Greens, Plaid and SNP the ranking is against them. And works for the Brexit Party.

Meanwhile Boris Johnson has vowed to crash the UK out the EU without a deal.... what internal numbers is he aware of???

Results due after 10pm Sunday.

OP posts:
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SwedishEdith · 25/05/2019 12:53

Even less effective imho. Very few people confuse their sex life with their choice for PM.

Farage's "appeal" to some is the fact he's Farage. It's certainly not his policies because he doesn't have any. So, yeah, I think the revulsion factor will have some effect on those who vote driven by their feelings and "belief".

1tisILeClerc · 25/05/2019 12:56

{Hammond didn't even have the political nouse to do anything to support TM's "vision for the JAMs" as Chancellor.}

Unless you happen to know the exact relationships within the cabinet at the time you cannot make this assertion.
Theresa has had 3 years of excellent advice from senior politicians and world leaders and has ignored most of them but has 'flirted' with the ERG and others who have no long term plans for the UK.
The fact that even now, 3 years on, the UK government have not a clue how to get out of the mess is very telling. Leaving with no plan, as Boris and Farage are suggesting is suicidal for the UK.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2019 12:59

Those of us wanting Hammond have no illusion that he'll stop being a Tory and find some compassion.

It's just that he is one of the very few competent Tories with high-level experience in govt, who has some understanding of how the economy and international trade work.

Unlike delusional and / or sleazy twats like Boris, Fox, Leadsom, JRM, Redwood etc

Obviously a competent choice of PM would be fiercely opposed ...
by those who want either to loot the UK and eventually the other 27 - like the US & Russian funders of the far right -
or who want a Labour Left figure like Corbyn to emerge supreme after the chaos of a No Deal economic crash.

Some people see clear financial and / or political gain from a collapsed & disintegrating UK,
like with Russia in the 1990s,
but with far greater opportunities from looting an economy that is an order of magnitude greater than Russia's.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2019 13:06

I also strongly dislike the Farage in bed poster.

It doesn't state anyything specific about what he has said or done, just tries to repel people

I strongly believe that we should quote back what a politician has previously stated, or done
Thee best guide to what they really intend, what their real beliefs are

That's why I keep repeating Farage's use of nißßer & nßg-n#gs while in UKIP and his singing the Nazi song "Gas the Jews" at Dulwich College

They can't be excused as being "taken out of context / cherry-picked"
and if someone excuses those, I won't bother trying to convince them of anything, because they are beyond my reach.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2019 13:09

People who don't care about policies, won't care what policies they wake up to

That poster of Farage, in bed, only repels those who hate the far right views he has

Peregrina · 25/05/2019 13:22

I agree that the LedByDonkeys one on Farage's views on breastfeeding will strike a chord with many. We see enough views on MN about this. Particularly with a baby older than about six months, and heaven forbid if people dare to feed a toddler in public. (Not views I share.)

Peregrina · 25/05/2019 13:28

That's why I keep repeating Farage's use of nißßer & nßg-n#gs while in UKIP and his singing the Nazi song "Gas the Jews" at Dulwich College

So do I but I was challenged by this on the Leavers Rejoice thread - how dare I suggest it. By the same people who have no problems in slagging off Corbyn for his views. It just makes me more determined to repeat them.

wheresmymojo · 25/05/2019 13:29

@Basilpots I love the Political Thinking podcast by Nick Robinson, you get such a good insight into some of the things that shape each politician's worldview and where they are coming from.

Did you happen to hear the one with Esther McVey?

The podcast had made me think much more about some of the politicians on it (even where I might disagree with their views), let's just say the one with Esther didn't.

Peregrina · 25/05/2019 13:30

I think now the more effective protest is to crowdfund to take people to court. Imagine if Boris Johnson loses!

BeardedMum · 25/05/2019 13:30

I am terrified of waking up to Boris as PM

SwedishEdith · 25/05/2019 13:54

That's why I keep repeating Farage's use of nißßer & nßg-n#gs while in UKIP and his singing the Nazi song "Gas the Jews" at Dulwich College

Those views won't repel a lot of his supporters. They'll just waved it away - "Oh, he was younger then". That's assuming they disagree in the 1st place.

There's no one campaign that appeals to all, needs to be multi-pronged.

I've seen Johnson added to that bed poster - he's behind Farage.

Yes, crowd-funded legal challenges will work - it's always the law that brings them down in the end. But they take a long time.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/05/2019 14:08

afaik, lying is not a criminal offence, except under oath or on sworn documents

Peregrina · 25/05/2019 14:26

Those views won't repel a lot of his supporters.

As mentioned - see some of the posters on the Leavers Rejoice thread.

Icantreachthepretzels · 25/05/2019 15:08

I think the Farage in bed poster makes him a bit of a laughing stock. It's not that people confuse their sex lives with politics (or don't) and so won't 'get' the poster or not be affected by it - it's that it makes him look silly and undignified.
Making him look like a clown - laughing at him - is the best way to turn people against him. And using his own words doesn't work - because his followers agree with him.
Making him look silly cheers up those who hate him and sways the waverers into seeing him as a bit of prick. The group of people who don't hate him but can't be arsed to go out and vote for him. Their not in the cult but they think some of what he says makes sense - they are the people that can be corralled into voting against him by making him a buffoon.
And the more people are laughing, the less people will want to admit to being in the cult. He loses his power when people laugh at him. Both amongst the electorate and amongst the politicians who are currently running scared. When he makes people angry - he becomes more powerful.

SwedishEdith · 25/05/2019 15:26

Exactly pretzels. Undress the charlatan - literally, in that poster.

Icantreachthepretzels · 25/05/2019 15:32

I would also suggest editing his speeches so that rather than words he just makes fart noises and then disseminating them far and wide (childish? me?)

tobee · 25/05/2019 16:01

Exactly Peregrina. It's like the Trump supporters who say "everyone breaks the law!" With a conspiratorial smile when confronted with his dealings.

woodpigeons · 25/05/2019 16:18

UK heading for another Brexit extension in October, suggests Juncker
Brussels chief criticises MPs for prioritising May’s removal above finding agreement

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/23/jean-claude-juncker-criticises-mps-prioritising-theresa-mays-removal-over-brexit?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

RedToothBrush · 25/05/2019 16:59

Juncker is being optimistic there. Unless we are into a GE that's not happening. France won't allow it.

OP posts:
DGRossetti · 25/05/2019 17:12

Whole artilcle

www.spectator.co.uk/2019/05/only-boris-can-bury-brexit/

spectator.co.uk
Only Boris can bury Brexit | The Spectator
Matthew Parris
6-7 minutes

Sit down, my swivel-eyed Brexiter friend, and pour yourself a stiff whisky. I’ve something to tell you that’s going to be a bit difficult for both of us. Sitting comfortably? Your swivel-eyed Remainer columnist has discerned just the tiniest glint of a silver lining to the dark cloud of a possible Boris Johnson premiership.

And the reason? It’s this. The most important ability the next Tory leader must possess is the ability to break bad news. To get away with this and bring the voters with you, real leadership is required: not just eloquence, not just empathy, but the command, the confidence and the sheer guts to face the inevitable, grab the bull by the horns, and spit it out. And before the end of this autumn, somebody is going to have to tell the British people that we aren’t leaving.

I write this just before the elections to the European Parliament. You may read me after the polls have closed and before the results are released. But I’ll take a stab, now, at those results. Up to half the total electorate will have bothered to vote, and the other half will have stayed at home. Around a third of those who did vote will have voted for Nigel Farage’s Brexit party: the only hard-Brexit, no-deal-if-necessary party standing.

It will follow that about a third of at most half the electorate will have voted for a hard, no-deal-if-necessary Brexit. That’s 17 per cent maximum, but let’s be generous to Nigel and call it a fifth.

That will mean that four fifths of the electorate will have declined the best opportunity we British will get to signal that we’re ready and willing to leave without a deal. Nevertheless, the result will be splashed across next week’s papers and news reports as a terrific result for hardline Brexiters. Their friends in the parliamentary Conservative party will be renewing calls for Theresa May to make way for a ‘real’ Brexiter as leader and prime minister, and to save the party from evisceration by Mr Farage.

That such an eventuality may not claw back from the Brexit party as many former Tories as it will lose centrist Tories like myself will not occur to them — or, if it does, will be suppressed as unhelpful to their quest to ‘purify’ the Tory party: something they now want to do regardless of the immediate damage it threatens to Conservative fortunes or the British economy.

Mrs May may not go as fast or easily as people think, but in the end go she must; and, for a while at least, we shall have a new Conservative prime minister, having chosen a new leader of the Conservative party.

But as my journalistic colleagues never tire of pointing out, this won’t change the arithmetic of the House of Commons. Three assertions, of which I’m as sure as one can be of anything in politics, follow. First, this parliament will never vote for, and will do everything it can to stop, a no deal or even ‘managed’ no-deal Brexit. Second, no majority will be found for any half-in half-out exit deal, because such a ‘Brexit in name only’ will always be embarrassingly inferior to simply remaining a full member.

Thirdly, a new British prime minister will have no more success than Mrs May in pushing the rest of the EU into making a sharply better offer.

From these three assertions flows only one outcome. A new British prime minister, having visited the Queen to check in, and having during the course of leadership elections vowed to get a better deal from Brussels on pain of leaving without a deal, will have to hotfoot it to Brussels — and will have to return more or less empty-handed.

Such a PM will then be under enormous pressure to try to get the United Kingdom out of the EU with no deal or (more likely) a ‘managed’ no deal. At this point, both Houses of Parliament will awake from their fitful slumber and stop this happening.

The bind our PM will be in is as simple as it will be cruel. He or she will have promised the electorate something that she or he is quite unable to deliver. Nor will this PM be able to blame any unforeseen circumstance, any act of God or man, for impasse reached, as the whole thing has been horribly clear for years now. It will be fess-up time — though of course the speech required can be larded with references to what awful monsters the EU are, etc, etc, actually sticking to their guns and doing what they always said they’d do, the cheating rotters.

Now look at the likely candidates on offer for the Tory leadership, and try, in each case, to imagine each one’s attempt to carry off this huge rhetorical challenge.

The speechwriter’s brief? To explain why Her Majesty’s Government has decided to revoke our Article 50 notification and return to the drawing board to consider Brexit anew, without pressure of pesky EU-imposed deadlines.

I think Boris could do it. ‘Brazen’ is his middle name. Mr Johnson could infuse a humiliating retreat with the spirit of Dunkirk as, under heavy enemy shelling, our little boats bring back the British negotiating team from foreign shores. ‘Reculer pour mieux sauter, my friends,’ he’d cry — ‘or, as they say in France, “Rip it up and start again.”’

Rory Stewart could do it, too, making surrender sound almost elegiac. Michael Gove is more than capable of getting straight on to the front foot and turning a lament for failure into a hymn to patience, persistence and pure reason.

But Amber Rudd? Jeremy Hunt? Sajid Javid? Matthew Hancock? I struggle to picture the scene except with an inward cringe. Dominic Raab might simply explode.

But it remains likely that almost the first big thing our next prime minister is going to have to do is declare a ceasefire with Europe, a rethink, and an indefinite delay. Which Tory will have the tongue — and the stomach — to do it? This may prove the next big question.

For Remainers, is there a silver lining to a Boris leadership? Matthew Parris talks to James Forsyth and Katy Balls on this week’s Spectator Podcast:

Basilpots · 25/05/2019 17:27

@Wheres funnily enough I have been skipping over the McVey one for the very reason you have just outlined !

Having said that I enjoyed the Alistair Campbell one more than I thought I would but that was more to do with his honesty about his depression.

Most of them are more likeable than I imagined not to say that makes them good at there job though but with a longer interview you do gain a better sense of where their views come from. Also surprised how many Tory’s were members of other political party’s.

Littlespaces · 25/05/2019 17:30

I wouldn't be surprised to see a stand off between Michael Gove & BJ.

Littlespaces · 25/05/2019 17:32

I much prefer Rory Stewart.

BestIsWest · 25/05/2019 17:37

DGR I have said exactly that for the last three years. I still reckon only Boris could get away with it. Much as I dislike him.

DGRossetti · 25/05/2019 17:41

DGR I have said exactly that for the last three years. I still reckon only Boris could get away with it. Much as I dislike him.

Ironically, the best way to kybosh a BoJo PM might be for remainers to support him Grin Hmm ?

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