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Westminstenders: Has Boris been outmanoeuvred? Reprise

979 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/05/2019 22:31

In the beginning there was this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1

And it said:
If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

And

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

So what of where we stand and the poison chalice of the Tory Leadership and a deal.

According to a poll of Tory Members, Johnson is by far their runaway favourite to become next leader. And he's given a 61% competence score - higher than any other candidate.

With Raab as their second favourite.

May has successfully managed to make such a mess of how she handled the 2016 Tory Party Conference and everything that subsequently stemmed from that, that the poison chalice of leadership will be passed and sooner than many would have wanted.

However blame for what follows can be laid at her feet. At the Labour Party’s feet for ending talks that were never going anyway. At the EU. And No Deal has been detoxified by May's handling amongst many supporters of Brexit. Johnson and Raab will therefore have no interest in striking a deal with the EU and instead set sail for exit on 31st Oct and will brazen it out.

What is scary is that waiting in the wings is Farage, who without winning a single seat in the HoC has more power than any MP. They are all so afraid of him. Thus we face a very hard push to the right, with the left and centre in disarray and disorganisation.

The Human Rights Act and Devolution settlements will be top of the list to go.

And we will face draconian ways to control the population as the lazy fools will want no accountability to the press or the courts.

How long before appointed or elected judges?

Was Boris outmanoeuvred?

By the look of it, absolutely not. He just had to wait a few years. But his path and power will not be lead by him... But by those who pull his strings.

It looks bleak. Very bleak.

Many may rue the day they didn't vote for May's deal yet...

... And fear of this nightmare vision of the future is the only card May has left in her hand to play. Will anyone realise this?

Probably not, because they will all still think Johnson's leadership bid will be blocked by moderates. The trouble is he's polling well and the cowards are too busy looking over their shoulders at the turquoise arrows.

Pray for a shock result next week which brings fewer Brexit Party seats than are anticipated. The trouble is they have the momentum right now and Remainers don't know their arses from their elbows much less be passion and inspiring to the young and to women.

We are fucked.

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/05/2019 10:18

Boris is a Boriser, i.e. all his actions are motivated by what is best for Boris
He has no genuine political convictions

He could have chosen to campaign for Remain just as easily as Leave - his infamous w alternative articles.
he is now claiming to be a One Nation conservative, to gain support from Tory moderates, desperate for someone who could be effective against Farage

It will be interesting to see if Gove "assassinates" him again, in the light of the Farage threat.

Farage has a long history of racism & anti-semitism;
Trump has a long history of racism, but not anti-semitism, although he defends those on the far right who do express such views

Both of them have as much ego as Boris, but they do have genuine far right racism-based convictions

Peregrina · 22/05/2019 10:19

Interesting, as I've seen a couple of posts saying that those with any education should be purged.

And once again I will remind people that pre-War Germany had a highly educated and cultured nation - and many of the Leading Nazis were university educated - Himmler, Goering, Goebbel etc.

Motheroffourdragons · 22/05/2019 10:20

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

1tisILeClerc · 22/05/2019 10:23

{Boris is a Boriser, i.e. all his actions are motivated by what is best for Boris}

I was going to have said he is a 'Boris' party.

{He has no genuine political convictions}
How is his court appearance coming on? (just asking, not really interested).

1tisILeClerc · 22/05/2019 10:31

{And once again I will remind people that pre-War Germany had a highly educated and cultured nation - and many of the Leading Nazis were university educated - Himmler, Goering, Goebbel etc.}

Time and environment is different. The German 'elite' needed the educated to carry out their plans and keeping the majority of the population 'sweet' was not an issue. Their stated goals were the rise of the nation. Picking on a minority helped bind many together. Mass media was controllable and used very effectively. Mobile phones for all and mistrust / marginalisation of MSM has changed the mode of operation. Brexit is largely a massive financial scam but using nasty ideology to increase some wealth.

prettybird · 22/05/2019 10:37

Been mostly off-line since Sunday night and with crap free wifi, so want going to even try to load MN threads Wink

So although I'll try to catch up, I don't know if this has been posted yet, which supports what ds told me about the relative position of the Greens v the LibDems in Scotland - which is why I am so Hmm about the Remainvote.com recommendation to vote LibDem Confused

Westminstenders: Has Boris been outmanoeuvred? Reprise
QueenOfThorns · 22/05/2019 10:53

prettybird, it might make sense to vote Lib Dem. They’re not far behind the Greens. If the Greens would need a humongous number of extra votes to get their second seat, but the Lib Dems just need a few more to get one, that recommendation tallies with your chart.

Peregrina · 22/05/2019 10:54

Time and environment is different.
Maybe so, my point was that education alone does not save people. After all most of the leading Tory Brexiters are educated. I think we can discuss whether Farage's expensive schooling made him educated.

A comfortable win for Remain parties in Scotland there prettybird. Pity that this will be sold as wanting to get on with Brexit.

borntobequiet · 22/05/2019 10:59

No amount of education can stop some people from being ignorant dicks.

1tisILeClerc · 22/05/2019 11:10

There is a massive difference between being educated and actually applying it to something useful.
Fritz Haber, German chemist of Jewish extraction known for his brilliance in producing fertilisers which help nearly half the world eat. He wasn't a politician however.

LoonvanBoon · 22/05/2019 11:13

Born, thanks for posting the Pete Buttigieg piece - he seems awesome. I loved the bit where he said (about Trump) that 'we need to make sure we're changing the channel from this show he's created'. And how we shouldn't change our values just to appeal to a wider audience, but we might need to 'update our language' to connect with more people.

I just don't know how we do any of this in practice in relation to our situation. It feels hopeless at the moment.

I haven't been able to listen to Cable / Farage either. I did go to the Torygraph page & looked at a couple of comments while I was getting the macbook wheel of doom, but one of the first things I read mentioned Cable's 'heresy' and I just couldn't face it. Feel sick thinking about Farage right now.

Did anyone else listen? Please tell me Vince did okay.

bellinisurge · 22/05/2019 11:29

Vince did ok. But only ok. Faridge did all his usual tricks. Typical populist who to paraphrase Corporal Jones "don't like it up 'im " when he was trying to catch Cable out on "Bollocks to Brexit ". "It's how people talk" said Cable.

LoonvanBoon · 22/05/2019 11:34

Oh FFS. The faux outrage about the LD slogan is so pathetic. Glad Vince wasn't a disaster at least. I know that Faridge's fans say he's DEFEATED anyone he talks to even when everything he says is literally an empty slogan, so I guess that's to be expected.

Wonder why he wouldn't debate Heidi Allen, though. She seems nice but not especially impressive under questioning, so I'd have thought NF might have seen it as an easy ride? Or maybe he just thinks a younger woman beneath his dignity, the twat.

bellinisurge · 22/05/2019 11:45

I watched that clip of that person having a go at David Davies and calling him a traitor to Brexit for voting for the WA last time around.
Are the majority of Leavers as ridiculous as that woman? Really? I hope not. I hope they are more like him. And I don't like him either.
I don't engage with them around here - strong Leave area. Thank Christ if they are all like that.
I know one who is a robust "let's get on with No Deal" type but she's not hateful like that. Or maybe she is but she's cordial enough with me.

Peregrina · 22/05/2019 11:51

I personally know a few 'Let's get on with it' Leavers, but they are also people who are very community minded and do their bit, so I suspect in the fullness of time they might cause to regret their vote, their actions will help to relieve some of the worst effects.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 22/05/2019 12:18

Listening to PMQ. Why did Corbyn go for schools rather than the collapse of British Steel? It's massive and current.

Mistigri · 22/05/2019 12:26

Are the majority of Leavers as ridiculous as that woman

I think she is fairly typical of the more rabid leavers tbh.

She has a long history - she is a pathological (and I do mean in the medical sense) attention-seeker who has a history of "suicide attempts" via attempted "drowning" (and the scare quotes are very much intended btw) which resulted in repeated and expensive intervention from the emergency services and ended with her being banned by the courts from visiting the coast.

I think that attention seeking by inadequate/ narcissistic people who cannot hope for attention in more positive ways is a key part of the alt-right movement and is the reason why the same people pop up for example in both "incel" and Brexit circles.

Cherrypi · 22/05/2019 12:27

He did mention steel first I think. Is this May's last pmqs? Hope we're not looking back fondly at May in a few years time.

Mistigri · 22/05/2019 12:32

... "Bollocks to Brexit ". "It's how people talk" said Cable.

I must admit that when the LDs adopted that slogan I had a momentary WTF reaction.

Then I remembered that at the PV march there were people handing out BtB stickers, and marchers of all ages wanted them. I'm a boring middle-of-the-road 54 year old economist, and I went back through stansted airport with my luggage proudly plastered in BtB stickers. So I'm pretty sure that the LDs got this one right.

FoldyRoll · 22/05/2019 12:35

Spot the obvious mistake. Even more glaring when you consider the area. Way to shoot yourself in the foot, NE4EU.

Westminstenders: Has Boris been outmanoeuvred? Reprise
Motheroffourdragons · 22/05/2019 12:37

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Motheroffourdragons · 22/05/2019 12:38

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Mistigri · 22/05/2019 12:39

No, I know that the LDs just co-opted it. I think it is looking like a good move.

DarlingNikita · 22/05/2019 12:47

I despise the woman, but probably despise more any of the people who may replace her.

Yes, this is the terrifying thing and the bind we're all in.

Dontlickthetrolley · 22/05/2019 12:50

Mine is still in my purse next to a lovely note from my son. Might put it on my passport next week 🤔

Westminstenders: Has Boris been outmanoeuvred? Reprise