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Brexit

Westminstenders: Lets get on with...

939 replies

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2019 09:48

Admitting the mandate for leaving has expired.

The newspapers today are full of Talk of both Corbyn and May panicking that Brexit is destroying their parties, so after nearly 3 years of party politics they have decided that actually they can agree on something in the next week or so. Not because it's in the national interest but because they don't fancy mutual self assured destruction.

If they do manage to cobble something together then it with be rushed and shite.

If they don't they will be punished at the Euro elections by a Remain / Leave pincer action.

They can spin it all they like from their local election disaster that it was people wanting to get on with Brexit. It certainly does not change the reality that those people who were most likely to vote are fed up with the pair of them. And that there is a strong indication that the most motivated voters are remain leaning. Perhaps its true that leavers stayed home in protest. If they did, what will they do if the Brexit Party stand candidates at a general election? Maybe they will vote, but you can't argue that they view voting itself as an important act. Spoilt ballots were up, but not that up. If the pair do manage a deal, then we have Brexited which might satisfy some. The trouble is the underlying issues are not to do with the European Union. And even if we leave with a deal that does not resolve our future trading relationship. The poison that is Brexit won't end. And the voters will realise that soon enough. Leaving even with a deal will harm the economy, and that's only going to fuel discontent.

It's therefore hard to see where either party go from here. Not when they are effectively split internally. The poison is here to stay.

Spinning it as 'it shows the public want us to get on with Brexit' isn't going to help their cause with voters who still think leaving is a national disaster. Those voters will still think its a national disaster and will be even more pissed at being ignored and dismissed once again.

Where is the incentive to return to voting Labour or Conservative?

The Euro Elections, if they go ahead, will therefore be about one thing and one thing only: turnout. Even if the Brexit Party do relatively well, it will be about how many turnout in comparison to the locals and in comparison to the last EU elections. Whilst they might not admit the reality of things, ultimately all Labour and Conservatives really care about is securing the vote of people who will vote because voting intention doesn't win them seats if people don't turnout.

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Peregrina · 09/05/2019 14:46

It doesn't change my opinion either.

Furthermore for those Leavers whinging that most MPs support Remain, could I remind you that we had a General Election in 2017, after the Referendum, when you had ample opportunity to vote for Leave supporting MPs.

DGRossetti · 09/05/2019 14:48

but if you are minded to attempt to understand the mindset of those who'd prefer to Leave,

Is there a "mindset" then ? A single unifying feature or expression ? (Obviously no unifying facts). Did all Leavers vote as one then ? I thought they were all individuals.

(Can't resist it ... Yes ! We are all individuals. )

LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2019 14:54

Fair cop DGR there should have been a "some of" in there, I put it in one place but not the other.

DGRossetti · 09/05/2019 15:02

Fair cop DGR there should have been a "some of" in there, I put it in one place but not the other.

To be brutally honest, I'm not really interested in a litany of leaver woes which will only every be linked back to the decisions taken by UK voters in electing UK governments that then sell them down the swanee. It's been nearly three years now, and we're still waiting for a preliminary peek at these mythical "EU laws" that the UK has been "forced" to accept with no say in the matter. Just one would do.

I have heard some very well argued reasons why some people felt Leaving would be and advantage to the UK. But the problem is all the people that espoused them don't anymore. Driven mainly by the unbelievable incompetence and naked self service of the politicians tasked with delivering it.

Anyway, I'm going to state that come July 3rd, the UK will not have left the EU. If we were going to leave it would have been March 29th with no deal. Once that passed ... it passed for good. And a perusal of these boards will reveal that much as it would have been a disaster, I was quite prepared for that to happen.

LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2019 15:11

I can only conclude from this that you'd rather stay in your Remain bubble then. Sorry for the intrusion Sad I thought he made some compelling points, but there we are.

@lonely, massive oversimplification of course but the simple answer is that Parliament must be involved because that's how laws get made in this country.

bellinisurge · 09/05/2019 15:15

The Remain bubble? Hilarious notion. Given that we are bombarded daily with Leaver nonsense. You can tell Nige is just loving all the attention and reliving his glory days. He's on QT tonight because the meejah loves indulging his vanity.

CardinalSin · 09/05/2019 15:16

I think the phrase "the appropriate function of representative democracy, not a binary referendum" should apply to this whole mess in the first place...

1tisILeClerc · 09/05/2019 15:17

Dr Lee Jones
He makes one or two interesting points but his view, like many 'leavers' misses out so many practicalities.
The UK could be entirely self governing and set ALL it's own rules, regulations and technical specifications (for traded goods).
Brilliant, except that as soon as you move off the island you discover that everyone else has a different view and they want common standards etc.
One way to get the 'best' out of trading with the rest of the world is to be included on the regulatory bodies of the biggest players, which in many cases is the EU.
If the UK is to continue making things, they will have to comply with the legislation of potential buyers, so it is nowhere near a 'free choice'. Similarly with almost all aspects of interaction between the UK and anywhere else.
He is also not acknowledging the fact that the EU is more about bringing people together rather than just 'trade'. It is of course difficult because you can't enforce 'equality' and 'niceness'.

LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2019 15:19

and of course people did vote for Leave supporting MPs, both the largest parties UK wide (the Conservatives and Labour) committing themselves to delivering Brexit at said 2017 election.

prettybird · 09/05/2019 15:19

Video of the SNP's EU Campaign launch. Smile www.facebook.com/theSNP/videos/655054568279588/?notif_id=1557410648699225&notif_t=live_video_share

It's about 15 minutes long.

1tisILeClerc · 09/05/2019 15:22

{I can only conclude from this that you'd rather stay in your Remain bubble then}

When the 'leavers' / Brexiteers can put up a comprehensive achievable plan it might be worth listening but so far after 3 years there is nothing more tangible that unicorn shit.
Meanwhile the government has pissed off most of the UK's allies and not even started to address the massive problems within the UK.

Peregrina · 09/05/2019 15:25

and of course people did vote for Leave supporting MPs, both the largest parties UK wide (the Conservatives and Labour) committing themselves to delivering Brexit at said 2017 election.

In which case why do Leavers whine that MPs are mostly pro-remain?
Remember that neither Conservative nor Labour won the election. Had either party done so, we would not be in the present mess, where there is no agreed mandate for Brexit.

LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2019 15:26

wow that's damning with faint praise 1Tis!
how much longer did you want his article to be lol

woman19 · 09/05/2019 15:27

come July 3rd, the UK will not have left the EU
One wonders if their failure to convince anyone else of their 'mandate', is now leading them to try to convince themselves of it.
Happy Europe Day.
We're still in the EU. Smile

LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2019 15:28

Because they are "pro Remain", having stood on a platform of accepting "Leave". Lots of them are ignoring the manifestos upon which they were elected. God how many times do I have to write this, just basic, basic stuff.

CardinalSin · 09/05/2019 15:30

It's hardly a plan Louise!

It's more of a whinge that things weren't done the way the Quitlings would have preferred them to be done (whilst not acknowledging the inconsistencies of his own ideas).

I think one thing we can all agree on is that it's been handled abysmally...

tobee · 09/05/2019 15:33

Anyone watching John Smith tribute on parliament channel? I'm getting ready to go out but it's worth hearing.

LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2019 15:34

the article you mean? where did I say it was a plan? Confused

woman19 · 09/05/2019 15:34

At the risk of repeating what I'm sure we all know, manifestos have no legal status

Nicola Sturgeon is a proper old school orator, prettybird I do admire her for that.

When you look at her and Cherry, and many other Scottish MPs( and writers and thinkers etc), I feel so jealous of Scottish education.

LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2019 15:36

they are the basis upon which people stood for election. whether they have legal status is neither here nor there. MPs are (supposedly) Honourable Members.

woman19 · 09/05/2019 15:37

Will check it out tobee and the BBC4 doc about the EU.....
John Smith

dreichuplands · 09/05/2019 15:38

I think the great benefit of Scottish education is its breadth. When I left school I applied to English universities who were surprised to note that I had applied for a mixture of Arts and Science degrees (my subject could be studied as either). It seemed much harder to manage this in the English system.

CardinalSin · 09/05/2019 15:38

You appeared to be responding to 1Tis who was talking about a plan, asking if he wanted the article longer!

I guess it's just a Quitling whinge then...

dreichuplands · 09/05/2019 15:42

I have some sympathy with Labour Brexit leave voters as I think Labour's approach to Brexit could at best be described as confused.
There are Labour MP's whose approach I personally support, Cooper for example whose campaign literature was much more pro Brexit than future actions.
Those who voted for Ken Clarke must have understood what they were getting but Yvette maybe not so much.

LouiseCollins28 · 09/05/2019 15:44

aha, sorry I see why you thought that now! 1tis posted another post I hadn't seen while I was writing, I was responding to a previous one.

re: lack of planning, I do agree that this has been handled poorly. I would add though that none of that is any sort of excuse for not delivering Brexit in due time.