Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot

[RedToothBrush]

I hope the events of this week give the ERG the kick up the backside over this that they need.

I doubt it will, but I live in hope. The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

I'll leave this here instead as a reminder of what choice Brexit was always going to come down to.

Happy Easter everyone.

Personally I think history should be compulsory until 16.

The British are known for having quite poor general education compared to other countries. And for being insular. We don’t fare particularly well on international league tables. Certainly we’re known to have low productivity, low skills and poor management in the workplace.

@NoWordForFluffy even if you don't study modern history the lessons and the parallels can be drawn.

Stuart history shows us the value of Parliament, what happens when we listen to those who think power should be vested in our 'betters'.

The attraction of right wing politics is simplicity. Left wing politics is mired in theory and nuance and detailed ideology. The right is nice and simple, good vs bad, foreign vs local, white bs black. Nice and clear no confusing detail.

My eldest GD is doing History GCSE and has an excellent grasp of the Weimar Republic and the Cold War. The curriculum has a level of detail that I didn't do until A level.
I think people are too quick to blame the teachers tbh.
If I blame anything then it is the trivialisation of history that comes from the "back in time' programmes and the ghastliness that is re-enactment.
I grew up with series on television like The Great War and The World At War. We have them on DVD and the quality is stunning.
Too much dumbing down and lazy thinking these days. Hurumph.

People are sleepwalking towards disaster. And they will not accept any blame for it. It will be the fault of those who warned them. It always is.

[E]ven if you don't study modern history the lessons and the parallels can be drawn.

Stuart history shows us the value of Parliament, what happens when we listen to those who think power should be vested in our 'betters'.

I don't recall much about the Stuarts as, for some reason, our history teacher only managed the Tudor part of the syllabus in two years. We had a lunch time crash course in the Stuarts lasting 30 minutes. My Tudor knowledge is shit hot, however, having 'benefitted' from having twice the usual time allocated to it! I'm still not sure how it all went so wrong.

But, yes, I agree in relation to the general principle regarding parallels etc and learning lessons. I still regret not doing A Level - modern - history, however.

The British are known for having quite poor general education compared to other countries. And for being insular. We don’t fare particularly well on international league tables. Certainly we’re known to have low productivity, low skills and poor management in the workplace.

MiL and I had quite a ding-dong when I described myself as "lazy" (which I am). Not "lazy" as in sit on my arse doing nothing. But "lazy" in the sense that whenever I approach anything, my first thought is "what's the easiest way to do this ?". Which of course doesn't dovetail well into the "well that's how we've always done it" mentality. A mentality which explains why fuck all has really changed in UK workplaces in 30 years. As repeated postings on MN will bear me out on ....

fuck all has really changed in UK workplaces in 30 years

Don't agree with that at all! Though maybe it depends on the sector you work in.

I don't think U.K. education is especially poor, but students are definitely allowed to specialise and drop "difficult" subjects too early (history, MFL).

In my day the syllabus stopped in about 1912. We spent a huge amount of time on revolution though, the American, the French, Peterloo and the Chartists. Quite a good syllabus really.

DCs both took it at GCSE and covered right up until the fall of the Berlin Wall. DD went on to degree level.

I studied a lot of Stalin. I mean a lot of Stalin. 4 years (GCSE plus A level) of back to back Stalin. Other stuff was mentioned too, of course - the Czar, Weimar, trade union movements, the depression ... but it always came back to Big Joe.

That was 1999 - 2003

I really don't think you can judge British education by the PISA tests. The methodology is very flawed.
I am also surprised that people talk about what they learnt or did not learn at school. I did history at O level, A level and university but it has very little to do with the knowledge and understanding that I acquired in later life.
As Plutarch said, the mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled.

My point is we are not in 20s or 30s Germany, i.e. look at the climate protests? dealt with humanely and despite large numbers of arrests very few charged, indeed a few hours later, most are back on the line!

We just do not live in a potential fascist state, we can freely air our views on Brexit... either way.
It is just that total areshole Cameron unleashed a lot of racial tension BUT these views are not new.
i lived in London in the late 80s and in the 90s i went to South Africa for 2 years, imho the average w.c Brit is more racist than the average white S.African.

The big difference is that in the UK it was hidden, in SA it was more open but equally more easily challenged.

The more I know about the Tudors and Stuarts the more I understand about the problems we face today.

The collapse in UK productivity began after the 2008 GFC, no wage increases, poor management, a hire and fire work force.. the recent increases in avg wages has more to do with the min wage going up by 4% year on year than employers feeling generous :(

UK Business (generally speaking) has decided to employ more staff rather than invest in automation or skills.

My point is we are not in 20s or 30s Germany, i.e. look at the climate protests? dealt with humanely and despite large numbers of arrests very few charged, indeed a few hours later, most are back on the line!

This is much too simplistic. I agree that British policing of protests can be very good compared to heavy handed militaristic policing in some EU states. But just because people can still protest peacefully doesn't override concerns about other anti-democratic trends in the U.K., in particular the gradual erosion of the rule of law and the media behaviour, including the gradual transition of the state broadcaster into a government mouthpiece.

Re U.K. education agree with MissClimson. There are good things about U.K. education even though I think the narrowness of the syllabus is a fundamental flaw.

Whole I agree that the EU is not currently a fascist state, much of what I have read especially in the tabloid press of 'othering', blaming the impact of austerity on immigrants and the EU rather than on government policies, I see the foundations being laid for people to look to a 'strong leader' to save us all

Horrifying.

I am also surprised that people talk about what they learnt or did not learn at school. I did history at O level, A level and university but it has very little to do with the knowledge and understanding that I acquired in later life.

For me, it's because I retain the knowledge I'm taught in a formal setting, such as school, university and law school, in a different way to that knowledge I have picked up piecemeal along the way afterwards.

At school, for instance, I was taught about the Tudors from start to finish, with all of the relevant information in chronological order. When I've learned historical facts outside of the school setting, it's more all over the shop, and so it's not as 'joined up' as the knowledge from a formal setting.

The general knowledge and information I have picked up is very different from my taught knowledge. In my brain, anyway.

I also have the misfortune of my brain having seemingly 'jettisoned' loads of information / memories I used to have during my studying for the GDL as it was so hardcore, it's all I thought about for the entire course. And my right eyelid twitched for the duration too! It did mean the LPC was really quite easy after it, however! Thank god for small mercies on that count.

I don’t agree that specialising at A level is a flaw, I think it’s a benefit. You get to do 3-5 subjects in a depth you don’t see in other systems. The French system, while it has some pluses, is weirdly rigid even at uni level.

I’m not particularly judging U.K. education by PISA tests, although they’re interesting.

One area we really fall down is languages.

Mistigri I agree that there are some concerning anti democratic developments in the UK, however, my argument isn't in regard to that, its that we are nowhere near 19th C Nazi Germany.

The unaccountability of FB and other SM platforms is far far more worrying than anything Westminster might dream up.

However, should Farage eventually become PM, not an impossibility, i might have to change my opinion.

One area we really fall down is languages.

I'm not sure we're even standing to be able to fall down in that respect. Language teaching was really poor when I was at school.

However, I'm hoping it's improving, as DD has just started to learn basic French in Y1, which means that she wants to learn more than she's being taught, as that's what she's like. We're teaching her the bits we know (I only did two years at school, with five of German). Anything I don't know the answer to, we Google and listen to the word online a few times.

I've taught her a little bit of German on top of this, and we've both taught her the bits of Spanish we've picked up from holidays in Majorca as young adults (plus Googled some of this too).

My point is we are not in 20s or 30s Germany,

Control of the press.
Physical and verbal attacks on MP's
Racism and hate crimes (Blaming minorities)
Fear of difference (Farage's Breaking Point poster)
Cult of tradition (nostalgic looking back in time)
Disagreement is treason (Daily Mail 'Enemies of the People' front page)
Ignoring half the population & sidelining debate (Will of the People)
Targeting women
Undermining Parliament

www.independent.co.uk/voices/anna-soubry-nazi-thugs-farright-brexit-vote-women-men-power-parliament-a8724406.html

We are certainly not in the mid to late 1930s Germany but we are most definitely not heading in a civilised and more enlightened direction.

I am still pondering about the Climate change activists and the Police. Is this because they are mainly a middle class crowd? Otherwise - consider the policing of the Miners strike in the 1980s e.g.the Battle of Orgreave or the Hillsborough Disaster. It's taken a long time for the latter to see justice, the miners strikers are still waiting for a proper enquiry. Or has the fact that Hillsborough has eventually led to an enquiry led to policing reforms? Or has May p*ssed them off so much that they are not inclined to be as heavy handed as in Thatcher's day?

BTW Management in the UK has always been pretty dismal but the Japanese and Germans buying up our car industries improved them.

The UK 's productivity problems go back several decades,
and are due to major structural problems in the UK:
infrastructure, investment strategy, type of education, management etc

Having an Empire disguised them, because the UK had captive sources of cheap raw materials and captive markets

However, WW2 brought the double whammy of the UK being almost bankrupt by about 1942 and also the USA insisting first on having access to the Empire's markets, then after WW2 on the UK giving up its colonies.

The loss of Empire left the UK economy to struggle along on its own
Before we joined the then Common Market in 1973, the UK was heading for dire straits

Being in the CM, EEC, EC and finally EU helped compensate for the UK's structural problems, but didn't actually address them.
Hence, if we do Brexit, these are additional problems that will drag us down.

Boris as PM would likely result in an economic crash, for which he tries to blame the EU & Remainers,
but won't be able to control the civil unrest.

No dictatorship , just increasing nastiness & heavy-handedness by the state, encroachments on current human rights

Collapsing within a couple of years into total chaos and economic meltdown

He'd likely be followed by a Seamus Milne type Labour PM

Farage as PM might indeed produce a fascist state such as Franco's Spain
So not a Nazi one with mass murder,
just a smalltime nasty fascist state in which dissidents aren't murdered, but are roughly interrogated and interned longterm

Littlespaces

Most of what you listed is not being done by the state or under their direction... Soubry 's tormentor ended up being arrested and charged, as have other so called trolls.

I'm not sure about the control of the press bit, UK printed media seems free to me, as you stated the Mail printed what they liked :( so, perhaps you want a bit more control of papers like the Express, Sun and Mail?

The Police of course have to be very careful, any poor policing will be uploaded and on-line within seconds.

What would be interesting is how many Tory MPs would actually quit the party if Boris became PM. I don't recall how many threatened it but, unless it was nailed on cert that they would all actually put their money where their mouths are, I wouldn't like to test the theory by having him become PM. If it was nailed on they would, then go Boris, destroyer of the Tories!