Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot

[RedToothBrush]

I hope the events of this week give the ERG the kick up the backside over this that they need.

I doubt it will, but I live in hope. The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

I'll leave this here instead as a reminder of what choice Brexit was always going to come down to.

Happy Easter everyone.

TBF these sort of comparisons make remainers look utterly ridiculous and devoid of any sense of reality.

Those are the sorts of statements that Germans made during the 1920s and early 30s e.g. I am a good German, I fought for my country in the war and was decorated; I happen to be Jewish.......

This is how it did start there; it could be starting here. The Germans were cultured and educated and quite honestly, if they fell for Nazism any nation could.

FWIW I suspect leavers who change their minds are worried that if they speak up their social circles wouldn't tolerate them or they would be ridiculed. Easier to nod and smile if in the minority in a social setting.

Even easier to STFU ? Unless directly asked - and even then (unless I missed something) there's no law requiring someone to actually give an answer - much less an honest one.

I think I've only mentioned Brexit once in real life outside a domestic setting. That was a few weeks ago with a guy who I see swimming sometimes. He was off up to Manchester when Brexit II:The Wrath of Farage was showing on the M6, and I said I hope he wasn't delayed.

The old adage about having one mouth but two ears, so you learn twice as much listening has never been more true.

This discussion of the parallels with the rise of fascism in 1930s Germany reminds me of Pastor Niemoller's warning....

First they came for x.....
but I did not speak up for x as I was not x
Then they came for y
but I did not speak up as I was not y
.....
......
Then they came for me
And there was no one left to speak for me

I was reading Invisible Women this morning and there was a section about men being war mongerers (UN study showed global murders are 98% perpetuated by men)

In another nod to truth in art, James Acaster has a routine where he wonders what it must be like to the worst person in the world, and to know that you're the worst person in the world. He then makes the point that whoever the worst person in the world is, it will be a man ...

"We National Socialists believe a man can, in the long run, be happy only among his own people. We are convinced the happiness and achievements of Europe are indissolubly tied up with the continuation of the system of independent and free national States."

Who agree with this statement? Guess who is being quoted.

Will come back later to see if anyone guessed correctly.

If it wasn't for the "National Socialists", I've have suggested Abraham Lincoln.

Littlespaces he also said:

Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.

Lots of very brave Germans did oppose the Nazis. The German politicians inside the Kroll Opera House when the Enabling Act was passed were incredibly brave - those who voted against it.

However, by that point in 1933 the communists were already being oppressed.

The fascination with Weimar Germany is that they were a cultured, educated thoughtful people who, despite opposition by many, fell into the hands of facist dictator.

If it could happen there it could happen anywhere - that is why it is so scary and so relevant. The descent of Weimar is a warning and is one of those historical periods we need to pay attention to and apply the lessons learnt.

Other historical events like the Russian revolutions were much more specific to the country and the time.

Had to lookup this one as I couldn’t remember it properly.

It’s truly chilling to be able to relate so much of what this man said to our times.

It is a quite special secret pleasure how the people around us fail to realize what is really happening to them.

Surely it was that bloke, you know, the one who looked a bit like Charlie Chaplin. Painter and decorator originally from Austria. Now, what was his name....

What beats me, is that it was blindingly obvious that there would be a problem with the NI/Ireland border way back before the referendum vote. I've yet to speak to a brexiteer who has a sensible solution.

How anyone can claim it's a 'remainer plot' is beyond me!

With regard to the fear of a fascist type uprising, I quote Edmund Burke:
'All it takes for evil to succeed, is for good men to do nothing'.

OK. Too easy.

It is chilling how history is repeating itself.

It is chilling how history is repeating itself.

Right, I’m not looking at any more Hitler quotes. It’s way too scary.

It is chilling how history is repeating itself.

What is chilling is to read Goebbels, and see how modern politicians have pretty much followed his advice to the letter. Enabled (sadly) by site like MN. I'll be honest, I wouldn't post this anywhere else but this Brexit forum, but an awful lot of damage was ushered in under the slogan THINK OF THE CHILDREN. Look at all the measures that restrict individual adult freedom and expression that are "to protect the children".

Most recently the PornPass requirement. Because having to provide your identity to use the internet can't possible go wrong, can it ?

Goebbels said (I paraphrase) that you can get any law you want passed if you claim it's for "das kinder". And if anyone is savvy enough to spot what's going on ... well, that's why God created the fear of being labelled a paedophile. Tactics openly used in public "debates" on Question Time, and the like.

@DGRossetti

Yes. Goebbels on steroids, as I’ve said in a different thread. Goebbels with the ability to algorithmically target swing voters based on intimate data about them, and tools to get immediate feedback on exactly which propaganda hits the spot and which doesn’t.

Combine that with the current lack of critical thinking and ability to evaluate sources (failure of the education system) and we’re not going to get this back in the box for decades. If at all.

History and a much more in depth education on fascism/ww2 ought to compulsory in school.

We are the only country in Europe where you can can drop history at 14.

It is compulsory to at least 16 (often 18) in most European countries.

That is perhaps why so many people are historically illiterate and struggle to put together an argument using facts to back up opinions.

@Windowsareforcheaters

Absolutely

That is perhaps why so many people are historically illiterate and struggle to put together an argument using facts to back up opinions.

Although I have noticed, it doesn't stop them. In fact, it seems to spur them on.

In an attempt at a semi balanced view I have a look at Graun/Ind and some European press and to balance it out, Express and Fail.

Reading the comments on these in these last two makes me realise that if there are in any way representative of the UK then for the good of Europe the UK must leave. For many (of those posting), a lobotomy would be a serious 'upgrade'.

I studied history to GCSE, but chose Tudor and Stuart history, so didn't actually study modern history in any detail. If I'd carried on to A Level I would've done, but chose not to.

I can't grasp the attraction of right wing politics. When we have countries like Sweden on our doorstep. Why do people want it, when we could be learning from countries where people are, broadly, happy?

It isn't just about being historically illiterate. I actually can't get over how many people actually appear to be thick as mince in this country. How did that happen? And appear to be proud of it too.

It's the norm that at school you only learn what you have to. To pass the exam. And after school you stop learning and devote your free time to unchallenging enjoyment / relaxation.