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Brexit

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 20/04/2019 10:10

I hope the events of this week give the ERG the kick up the backside over this that they need.

I doubt it will, but I live in hope. The alternative is too horrid to contemplate.

I'll leave this here instead as a reminder of what choice Brexit was always going to come down to.

Happy Easter everyone.

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot
OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 22/04/2019 11:31

Crunchy, I have a couple of good friends who very nearly voted leave. They wavered and liked the idea of 'taking back control'. They only decided how to vote, right at the last. They voted remain, but were extremely close to voting leave. They are quite strict in parenting style, believing in discipline (and law and order type stuff) but otherwise are very much fall on the liberal side of the culture war.

They've subsequently been horrified as to how everything has played out and can't believe how close they were to voting the other way. Its more or less everything they dislike.

They are a professional couple (Father has a senior role in a scientific job and is highly educated. Mother a teacher).

We know another family and their extended family. Very much from a working class tradesman background. Solid labour voters. They are now very much middle class in nature. They too, all struggled to decide which way to vote. DH and I didn't tell them which way to vote and made a point not to. We just gently asked them to consider several questions and make their decision from the answers they came to from those questions and hoped they'd get the point we were trying to make from that. We know they ultimately eventually decided to go remain.

I think they serve to remind me of where actual voters sit, rather than hard core Brexiteers or Remainers. Both could easily have gone the other way. The thing they share most in common is that politics wasn't something they were too interested in. That's changed somewhat and that's what I think is now ultimately more important.

The culture war is seeking to exploit the fracture that the referendum caused along those lines and polarise views. So it's important to see it and understand it and how it appears.

Remain and Leave as identities feed upon those ideas as essential parts. If you do not believe in them wholeheartedly and without question, you are a traitor / bigot.

Thus if you hold views which are nuanced or acknowledge these are complex issues with lots of grey areas it is awful. And likewise if you hold views which are the 'opposite' to the way 'your side' voted its awful.

That's essentially what popularism is, and authoritarianism is. The rejection of being able to legitimately hold complex views or the view that you must hold the 'right' views to belong.

It's important to see and recognise.

OP posts:
bellinisurge · 22/04/2019 12:49

I'm a general prepper. You would think I would have voted Leave because I am all for people taking control of their situation, not being told what to do by The Man, not being sheep, showing some personal resilience, not being seduced by technological solutions, showing some old school make do and mend, putting up with some shit if it's for a better cause. But I voted Remain. To save GFA. To avoid drama and turmoil. Because those things are more important to me. And because I don't like being played. And while I recognise an element of being played to support the status quo, Leave looked like what is turning out to be. An undeliverable pipe dream that people were manipulated into falling for.

LonelyTiredandLow · 22/04/2019 13:01

I know I said I was being tin foil hat yesterday but I do suspect TM knew about the Sri Lanken bombings in advance. Of course the idea to use it for political gain is a common Tory theme Hmm.

Clavinova · 22/04/2019 13:17

LonelyTiredandLow

Brexit is just so full of coincidences, eh?
... It's just fascinating how many COINCIDENCES that to the untrained leaver observer look just so remarkably like they are connected hmm"

LonelyTiredandLow

*I suspect I am being tin foil hat here, but is anyone else suspicious that our Govt had public messages about Christian persecution and being fearful of practicing Christianity hours before the Sri Lanken (sic) bombings? It does somewhat help their agenda...

The Govt's public messages probably had something to do with it being Easter Sunday yesterday - but that's just me...

Loletta

had an interesting conversation with a French person saying that Paris is seeing a surge in investment from wealthy people abandoning London for Paris instead for their investments because of Brexit

Could be partly Brexit related - however, the wealthy elite seem to be flocking back to Paris because Emmanuel Macron has given them mahoosive tax cuts - no doubt the gilets jaunes were not best pleased. Meanwhile, the spectre of a Jeremy Corbyn government over here, will have many a self-respecting multi-millionaire running for the airport.

Clavinova · 22/04/2019 13:20

Just for clarity - these are both LonelyTiredandLow's posts;

"It's just fascinating how many COINCIDENCES that to the untrained leaver observer look just so remarkably like they are connected hmm"

"I suspect I am being tin foil hat here, but is anyone else suspicious that our Govt had public messages about Christian persecution and being fearful of practicing Christianity hours before the Sri Lanken (sic) bombings? It does somewhat help their agenda..."

Clavinova · 22/04/2019 13:21

Cross post with 13.01 - I was on a different screen!

Littlespaces · 22/04/2019 13:23

I sense a theme.....

Nothing to do with Brexit.

Oh no, It must all be those Remain voters fault, or Jeremy Corbyn, or lack of belief or the EU or Macron or Ireland being difficult . Blah, blah, blah, blah.

DGRossetti · 22/04/2019 13:26

Thanks goodness we have people like this to speak truth to power.

Westminstenders: Why the Irish Border isn't a Remain/EU Plot
Mistigri · 22/04/2019 13:29

the wealthy elite seem to be flocking back to Paris because Emmanuel Macron has given them mahoosive tax cuts

Really? Which tax cuts are those?

Icantreachthepretzels · 22/04/2019 13:32

You've repeated LonelyTiredandLow's posts twice now, Clavinova ... are you ever going to have an actual point to make about them or are you just a big fan of her work?

Clavinova · 22/04/2019 13:39

Really? Which tax cuts are those?

PARIS (Reuters)-President Emmanuel Macron fought off accusations of favouring the rich on Tuesday after making good on a campaign pledge to scrap France’s wealth tax-a symbol of social justice that has scared off thousands of millionaires from French shores.
uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-tax/macron-fights-president-of-the-rich-tag-after-ending-wealth-tax-idUKKCN1C82DG

^"Macron’s move to replace the tax with a levy targeting only real estate in last week’s 2018 budget was used by political opponents to brand him the “president of the rich”, a label the ex-Rothschild banker
has been struggling to shake off since taking office in May."^

Prime Minister Edouard Philippe has estimated some 10,000 people with 35 billion euros worth of assets left in the past 15 years.

Emmanuel Macron branded 'hero of the rich' for cutting taxes for the wealthiest in new French budget.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/emmanuel-macron-french-budget-hero-rich-cut-taxes-wealthiest-france-left-wing-a7971606.html

Clavinova · 22/04/2019 13:44

You've repeated LonelyTiredandLow's posts twice now, Clavinova ... are you ever going to have an actual point to make about them or are you just a big fan of her work?

I think my point is rather obvious - it's nonsense to suggest the TM knew about the Sri Lanken (sic) bombings in advance.

Back in the real world...

bellinisurge · 22/04/2019 13:46

More cut and paste tastic posting that no one can be bothered to click on.

1tisILeClerc · 22/04/2019 13:53

Clavinova's cut an paste spectacular was from October 2017.

In other exciting news, the Russians, Americans and representatives of the British Empire defeated Adolf Hitler's Nazi party.

CrunchyCarrot · 22/04/2019 13:55

liked the idea of 'taking back control'

That's pretty much what swung 'Leave' for me, although now I know that I was incredibly naive (I was never much into politics). The thought of untangling many decades of laws and regulations and arrangements between the UK and the EU is mind-boggling, as is the whole NI border fiasco. I pretty much assumed Boris and co had plans for how to tackle all that but no, they waltzed off into the sunset at the first opportunity. It was at that point that I realised things were not as rosy as they'd appeared and a terrible mistake had been made. For the record I'm degree educated (as is my mixed-race partner) although in sciences, not politics nor history (that might have helped!).

The thought of Boris becoming PM is horrific. Really awful. As is the prospect of Gove. JRM - gah no!

Remain and Leave as identities feed upon those ideas as essential parts. If you do not believe in them wholeheartedly and without question, you are a traitor / bigot.

Yes, this is so true! Sad

Clavinova · 22/04/2019 13:59

Here - just found this;

Dec 2018 Jeremy Hunt orders global review into persecution of Christians

Foreign Office review will be led by Bishop of Truro and is due by Easter

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/26/jeremy-hunt-orders-global-review-into-persecution-of-christians

Persecution of Christians across the Globe independent review: Foreign Secretary’s launch speech

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/launch-of-the-independent-review-into-the-persecution-of-christians-across-the-globe-foreign-secretarys-speech

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2019 14:16

crunchycarrot Leavers who have since switched to Remain, or at least no longer want Brexit,
nearly all seem to have views that don't fit on the authoritarian side of Ashcroft's table

2.6 million Leave voters have abandoned support for Brexit

Study published last September, but I doubt if the political chaos of the months since, would have convinced Remainers that Brexit is a good idea after all.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-referendum-millions-leave-voters-best-for-britain-no-deal-theresa-may-conservative-government-a8521346.html

the study found the overwhelming majority of those changing minds are Labour voters in seats the party currently holds.
....
it concluded that 2.6 million Leave voters have switched their support to Remain,
while 970,000 have moved the other way – a net gain for the pro-EU side of 1.6 million.

The majority for Leave in 2016 was around 1.3 million, meaning if all those who have now switched their allegiance had acted in accordance with their new view at the ballot box, Remain would have won the vote by a greater margin.
....
Labour voters accounted for 1.4 million of the 1.6 million switchers to Remain,
significantly outnumbering the 837,000 Tory voters who switched the other way.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2019 14:18

I'm fairly sure that May, with her Cof E background, genuinely cares about persecution of Christians

It's persecution of other groups that doesn't bother her
Especially when sh's doing the persecuting

DGRossetti · 22/04/2019 14:22

Female ? Vulnerable ? Foreign ?

Why don't you just fuck off home ?

www.thenational.scot/news/17587773.tory-minister-says-eu-citizens-fleeing-domestic-abuse-should-just-go-home/

UK IMMIGRATION Minister Caroline Nokes has said that vulnerable EU migrant women living in Scotland and fleeing domestic abuse should just return to their own countries, it has emerged.

(contd)

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2019 14:25

red Critical will be the 1922 meeting following the expected Tory vote meltdown in the local elections, repeated 3 weeks later in the EP elections.

After the disaster has actually happened. they'll be considering far more seriously how to change their rules to topple May.
They'll have a 2nd bite, if they don't change the rules this week

imo, it's too late to topple her before the elections, hence a rule change now would just increase the impression of a party & govt in chaos

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2019 14:28

The E27 have all said they won't expel any Brits, so Brtiish women who fled to escape DV would be safe.
Sometimes, moving to another country is the best way to escape a persistent abuser

Clavinova · 22/04/2019 14:37

1tisILeClerc
Dec 2018

"The French government will consider bringing back a tax on high earners which President Emmanuel Macron abolished early in his presidency, a key demand of “yellow vest” protesters who have been blocking roads and fuel depots for weeks, government spokesman Benjamin Griveaux said on Dec.5"

"critics accused him of favoring the rich while his government raised taxes on pensioners and others."

"Restoring the wealth tax became one of the protesters’ key demands"

www.hurriyetdailynews.com/french-government-to-reevaluate-position-on-wealth-tax-139458

Dec 2018 Evening Standard

Ending ISF (wealth tax) earned Mr Macron the nickname “President of the Rich"

www.standard.co.uk/news/world/wealth-tax-ruled-out-as-macron-addresses-france-to-quell-riots-a4013076.html

DGRossetti · 22/04/2019 14:37

Interesting dilemma for the Brexiteers who also like the surveillance state here. Be curious to know the UKs position in relation to it ? Is it going to be like Galileo, with the UK pressed up against the glass on the outside looking longingly in ?

www.zdnet.com/article/eu-votes-to-create-gigantic-biometrics-database/

The European Parliament voted last week to interconnect a series of border-control, migration, and law enforcement systems into a gigantic, biometrics-tracking, searchable database of EU and non-EU citizens.

This new database will be known as the Common Identity Repository (CIR) and is set to unify records on over 350 million people.

Per its design, CIR will aggregate both identity records (names, dates of birth, passport numbers, and other identification details) and biometrics (fingerprints and facial scans), and make its data available to all border and law enforcement authorities.

Its primary role will be to simplify the jobs of EU border and law enforcement officers who will be able to search a unified system much faster, rather than search through separate databases individually.

"The systems covered by the new rules would include the Schengen Information System, Eurodac, the Visa Information System (VIS) and three new systems: the European Criminal Records System for Third Country Nationals (ECRIS-TCN), the Entry/Exit System (EES) and the European Travel Information and Authorisation System (ETIAS)," EU officials said last week.

(contd)

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2019 14:45

So is a wealth tax one of the demands Brexiters have ?

Is it in a UKIP or Brexit Party manifesto ?

Mistigri · 22/04/2019 14:50

Clavinova's cut an paste spectacular

I find it especially tedious when she cuts and pastes poorly informed articles about other countries written by monolingual English-speakers.

(ISF has been replaced by ISI + some other taxes, and the impact is very variable depending on your asset mix - the FR govt is collecting the data for a review is Sept 2018).

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