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Brexit

Westminstenders: A False Sense of Security

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2019 22:34

The new exit date, unless we agree a deal sooner, is the 31st October.

It seems ages away, but its runs the risk of a false sense of security too.

The first deadline is May 22nd. The Conservative Party would dearly like to avoid European Elections. They are already liable to face wipe out in the early May local elections, as the party was at its peak in 2015 under Cameron when there were last elections.

The EU elections have the added danger of proportional representation meaning UKIP and The Brexit Party could win seats from them. This is despite polling suggesting that Ukip and the Brexit Party are unlikely to reach the high watermark of 2015 and this could lead to fewer UKIP style MEPs this time round.

The liklihood of a deal by 22nd May is low though. Especially given how well Tory - Labour talks are going. The potential for a deal seems remote in the next few weeks.

The next deadline falls on 30th June. If we do have EU elections, the next target for the Tory Party is the end of June to get a deal before the newly elected MEPs can take their seats. However if the goal is unachievable before EU elections, it seems unlikely that agreement will be found in the next 30 days unless there is a major change of heart amongst the hardcore ERG and the DUP. Labour will want to see the Tories humiliated too much.

May who says she will go, will face another wave of pressure to resign during May and June. Messages out of No10, though not May herself, had indicated an exit around 22nd May on the condition a deal was done. Crafty as ever, what May actually said was she would stay on until we reached the second stage of Brexit and had effectively left. This now falls as late as Oct 31st, thus killing plans for a summer Tory leader election.

Once we get past June though, time for a deal, any deal starts to become very limited. Parliament only sits until mid July. Here May hits another problem. The two year parliamentary session ends. There has been talk of it being extended but the DUP have firmly said no to this.

This means when parliament is due to return in September we have an issue. To start a new session May will need a majority to pass a Queens Speech. If the DUP and Hardline ERGers withdraw support in protest at May still being PM what happens? Can May win support from elsewhere. It seems unlikely.

At this point the question of a General Election looms large. And we only have six weeks from then before we exit the EU. If a GE is triggered then, the risk of no deal is extremely high, which might encourage some to support May from across the aisle to prevent parliament from being shut and losing those crucial six weeks.

The danger over the next few weeks, is there is a false sense of there being lots of time left. The reality is our real deadline might be in effect the end of the parliamentary session in mid July. After that all bets are off.

The date of 31st October isn't the one you should keep your eyes on.

OP posts:
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Motheroffourdragons · 19/04/2019 08:42

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Windowsareforcheaters · 19/04/2019 08:50

Early modern history starts about mid 1500s.
Late modern about 1750 ish.
Contemporary about 1945.

20 years ago barely counts as history.

Apileofballyhoo · 19/04/2019 09:09

Hard not to blame brexiters for playing with fire
Exactly Misti

I'm so upset.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 19/04/2019 09:21

mother

I agree

That was outstanding

Who knew that 'ever' only meant 20 years ago

Motheroffourdragons · 19/04/2019 09:24

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This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

Mistigri · 19/04/2019 09:25

Apile yes surprised it has not had more reaction on here!

We tend to think, from our cosy armchairs outside NI, that terrorism has gone away. Yes things are much better now, but still, at the moment, the majority of terrorist attacks that take place in the EU happen in Ireland. It's got worse this year, too.

Mistigri · 19/04/2019 09:26

"Ireland" in that last post intended to mean "the island of Ireland" not in Ireland the EU state.

ContinuityError · 19/04/2019 09:26

I'm rather bemused about that sentence for the stupid person who did stupid things. I didn't think that stupidity was a defence

Seems like Trump is using “angry and hurt” as his defence for obstruction Hmm

Wonder how Farage liked being cited as a person who could connect the Trump campaign and Assange?

Apileofballyhoo · 19/04/2019 09:27

Four ATMs were stolen last night. I expected more reaction on here too. Sad

RedToothBrush · 19/04/2019 09:28

red I completely missed that another reason for Farage forming the new party was to escape the fines on UKIP for his previous misdeeds

BCF UKIP is all but insolvent. It has huge debts to Aaron Banks for starters. The EU fines are just the icing on the cake. UKIP left the EU parliamentary group it was in for some strange reason too, but that lost them income too. I think Banks was happy to write off but if he can get idiots to repay him he'll be even happier.

It amazes me that people in Ukip are so bizarrely blind to how they are being fleeced too.

And yes anyone left in Ukip I will call an idiot for those reasons alone.

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RedToothBrush · 19/04/2019 09:31

20 years ago barely counts as history.

The Iraq war is not history
9/11 is not history
The war in Afghanistan is not history
The bosian war is not history
The Rwandan genocide is not history

Well that's one way to look at the world I suppose

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Windowsareforcheaters · 19/04/2019 09:43

The last 20 years is what I would call contemporary politics.

Contemporary history starts about 1945.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 19/04/2019 09:44

Am also wondering if
In mitigation, Gregory Wedge said Kirkman acted as a carer for his mother, adding: “In this case, it’s very clear this is a stupid man who made a series of stupid decisions.” is going to be the legal defence stance for the foreseeable...

Maybe groundwork is being laid for the defence of some very prominent stupid people who have made a series of catastrophically stupid mistakes.

I'm rather bemused about that sentence for the stupid person who did stupid things. I didn't think that stupidity was a defence

And even if it were surely you would need to prove the defendant to be both stupid and harmless and with a lack of intent? Isn’t it possible to be both stupid and malicious/dangerous?

NoWordForFluffy · 19/04/2019 09:45

The last 20 years has passed in a flash, how beyond that time doesn't count to some people is absolutely baffling!

BigChocFrenzy · 19/04/2019 09:45

Massive difference in results between different polling firms for EP elections

I know pollsters employ different sampling & weighting techniques,
but I can't remember seeing differences on this scale in any political polls

Why this huge difference ?

Margin of error is +/- 3% for this sample size
Fieldwork is 16 April for Comres, 15-16 April for YouGov

Is it down to how they weight the likelihood of different groups to vote ?

European Parliament voting intention:

ComRes, 16 Apr YouGov, 15-16 Apr Poll Difference
LAB: 33% LAB: 22% (-11)
CON: 18% CON: 15% (-3)
BREX: 17% BREX: 27% (+10)
CHUK: 9% CHUK: 6% (-3)
LDEM: 9% LDEM: 9% (-)
UKIP: 5% UKIP: 7% (+2)
GRN: 5% GRN: 10% (+5)

The significant differences are in LAB, BREX, GRN
It seems due to the varying solidity of the LAB vote - compared to ComRes, YouGov seems to have a big chunk going to BREX

Also GRN gaining 5% from probably CHUK & LAB
and CON losing 3% total to UKIP & BREX

The EP question is the same and very clear,
but could there have been different "primer" questions which particularly affected Labour voters ?

BUT look how YouGov's own results change after just 1 day !
This time, BREX vote drops 4% with 2% each to CON & CHUK

YouGov 16-17 April (chg w / 15-16 April)

BREX: 23% (-4)
LAB: 22% (-)
CON: 17% (+2)
GRN: 10% (-)
LDEM: 9% (-)
CHUK: 8% (+2)
UKIP: 6% (-1)

Is there really such voter volatility, or did YouGov use different methods in the 2 polls ?
Or is this just the +/-3% polling error showing up ?

Mistigri · 19/04/2019 09:46

The Good Friday agreement was signed on Good Friday 21 years ago.

There's a bit of history for today: the day we learnt that Brexiters playing with fire have got a young woman journalist killed.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 19/04/2019 09:47

So does that mean that I've been alive longer than ever

Yeah...well I guess so

I have been alive forever....its like fact

I wonder if it works the other way around...so anything over 20 years means you are going to live for ever?

Mistigri · 19/04/2019 09:48

*I know pollsters employ different sampling & weighting techniques,
but I can't remember seeing differences on this scale in any political polls

Why this huge difference ?*

Because of the massive potential for sampling error when you have two new parties (potentially) taking a third of the vote. How do you construct your sample?

NoWordForFluffy · 19/04/2019 09:48

And even if it were surely you would need to prove the defendant to be both stupid and harmless and with a lack of intent? Isn’t it possible to be both stupid and malicious/dangerous?

Well, you'd think so, on both counts, but who knows what the Judge was thinking?

BigChocFrenzy · 19/04/2019 09:50

Rightwing terrorists are rarely called that by the media
Instead, it's the "crazed loner"

Now apparently it's the "stupid loner" too

Maybe society think that rightwingers are crazy and / or stupid
Hence it is only everyone else who should bear the full opprobrium of their crimes

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 19/04/2019 09:50

We tend to think, from our cosy armchairs outside NI, that terrorism has gone away

Yes, and some posters have been saying for ages that this could mean more terrorism in Ni, and were told that it was project fear and not going to happen

LonelyTiredandLow · 19/04/2019 09:55

Sounds as though cash points are being used to fund some new attack. I imagine that is why houses were searched, trying to prevent something? I suspect the American backers are on standby waiting to see how things go in a few months, but others will want to show they aren't going to wait around doing nothing Sad. Leave and ERG definitely poked that bear with a sharp stick. In fact today would be pretty iconic for them...

I am wondering whether we can remind news outlets about the UKIP/Farage/money issues. I suspect they are investigating and will break the story nearer the time of the election. Timing is everything here or the Toad will wriggle free of the hook.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/04/2019 09:57

Misti I was concerned about that sampling problem
Hence, do polls now have any meaning, until at least we can check back after the EP elections to compare predictions

Mistigri · 19/04/2019 09:59

GE polling is probably more accurate but I think polling will bounce around quite a lot before the numbers settle down.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/04/2019 10:00

I gather that Farage is not contesting the local elections, as his new party can't manage the logistics

Another example of why the 11 GB regions makes EP elections much easier for poorly organised and / or new parties;
it's not just FPTP that has kept down UKIP in previous GEs

In that regard, an early GE might be a good way to head off the far right becoming a power in Parliament:

if they really can get in the upper 20s, then FPTP starts to become much less of a block

If of course those polls are not grossly over-estimating their support