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Brexit

Westminstenders: A False Sense of Security

995 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2019 22:34

The new exit date, unless we agree a deal sooner, is the 31st October.

It seems ages away, but its runs the risk of a false sense of security too.

The first deadline is May 22nd. The Conservative Party would dearly like to avoid European Elections. They are already liable to face wipe out in the early May local elections, as the party was at its peak in 2015 under Cameron when there were last elections.

The EU elections have the added danger of proportional representation meaning UKIP and The Brexit Party could win seats from them. This is despite polling suggesting that Ukip and the Brexit Party are unlikely to reach the high watermark of 2015 and this could lead to fewer UKIP style MEPs this time round.

The liklihood of a deal by 22nd May is low though. Especially given how well Tory - Labour talks are going. The potential for a deal seems remote in the next few weeks.

The next deadline falls on 30th June. If we do have EU elections, the next target for the Tory Party is the end of June to get a deal before the newly elected MEPs can take their seats. However if the goal is unachievable before EU elections, it seems unlikely that agreement will be found in the next 30 days unless there is a major change of heart amongst the hardcore ERG and the DUP. Labour will want to see the Tories humiliated too much.

May who says she will go, will face another wave of pressure to resign during May and June. Messages out of No10, though not May herself, had indicated an exit around 22nd May on the condition a deal was done. Crafty as ever, what May actually said was she would stay on until we reached the second stage of Brexit and had effectively left. This now falls as late as Oct 31st, thus killing plans for a summer Tory leader election.

Once we get past June though, time for a deal, any deal starts to become very limited. Parliament only sits until mid July. Here May hits another problem. The two year parliamentary session ends. There has been talk of it being extended but the DUP have firmly said no to this.

This means when parliament is due to return in September we have an issue. To start a new session May will need a majority to pass a Queens Speech. If the DUP and Hardline ERGers withdraw support in protest at May still being PM what happens? Can May win support from elsewhere. It seems unlikely.

At this point the question of a General Election looms large. And we only have six weeks from then before we exit the EU. If a GE is triggered then, the risk of no deal is extremely high, which might encourage some to support May from across the aisle to prevent parliament from being shut and losing those crucial six weeks.

The danger over the next few weeks, is there is a false sense of there being lots of time left. The reality is our real deadline might be in effect the end of the parliamentary session in mid July. After that all bets are off.

The date of 31st October isn't the one you should keep your eyes on.

OP posts:
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Peregrina · 18/04/2019 21:17

You really would expect Leavers to have this knowledge at their fingertips. ]Grin

ContinuityError · 18/04/2019 21:21

Yeah, it’s funny how the 1950 GE with a turnout of 84% has been airbrushed out of history.

Mistigri · 18/04/2019 21:28

wasn’t hard was it

We are keen on facts, precision and consistency on this thread Grin. Standards are higher than elsewhere on the internet Wink.

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 21:41

UKIP leader says Nigel Farage’s new group ‘not a proper political party’

Our best hope may be that the 2 far right parties destroy each other ....
before the support of irresponsible Lexiters like Galloway (see upthread) help propel the far right to significant power

www.politico.eu/article/ukip-leader-gerard-batten-says-nigel-farage-new-brexit-party-group-not-a-proper-political-party/

War of words escalates between former and current UKIP leaders.

The leader of UKIP hit out at Nigel Farage and his new Brexit Party, saying it is "not a proper political party."

Speaking on the day of UKIP's European election campaign launch, Gerard Batten told Sky News that the Brexit Party is a "vehicle for one man."
He added: "All you get from Nigel is rhetoric,"
.....
Farage had taken a shot at UKIP earlier Thursday,
tweeting that his former party has "just 3 MEPs. The Brexit Party has 16. The lurch towards extremism has destroyed UKIP."
The 16 MEPs are all ex-UKIP members who quit the party.

< if YouGov poll holds on 23 May, then official UK far right total would increase from 19 to 28 seats,
although this doesn't include those Tories who are really far right but want to stay in the secuirty of a large party >

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 21:45

Since 1973 there have been eleven referendums held in the UK:

https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/elections/referendums-held-in-the-uk/

Iambuffy · 18/04/2019 22:01

11???
Blimey

Icantreachthepretzels · 18/04/2019 22:03

let's make it 12 in 46 years.

RedToothBrush · 18/04/2019 22:11

I wish the UK would tackle dirty money fed illegally to the far right parties.

I wish that someone would tackle how Farage launched the Brexit Party to sort out UKIP's debt problem and issues relating to improper use of EU parliament funds which UKIP have to repay.

All these UKIP MEPs jumping ship have effectively got themselves off the hook for misconduct and 'phoenixed' the party like bankrupt companies do, fleecing everyone who gave them money in good faith.

They are the political equivalent of tax dodgers, fraudsters and conmen. And its well documented and very much out in the open.

Yet its something thats airbrushed out of the narrative.

The dark money is harder to level against people, this is wide open in broad daylight and no one blinks.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 22:32

red I'd forgotten the fine for UKIP misusing EP funding
Yes, those 16 MEPS - including Farage - who jumped ship to the Brexit Party may have avoided some consequences of this behaviour

Were they having their allowances and / or salary cut to repay this ?
Did this stop when they switched parties

The EP may need to consider for the future how to prevent MEPs from avoiding punishments by simply forming a new party

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 22:34

Typical view now from German commentators

Helene von Bismarckk@HeleneBismarck*

There is also strong German concern over the legitimacy of another referendum.

In contrast to the position expressed directly after 2016 vote,
lots of Germans no longer sure they want the UK to remain, even if that were possible.

Priority is future of EU. 5

Sostenueto · 18/04/2019 22:38

Trying desperately to catch up with thread ( scrolls manically to get gist of conversations).
Missed you lovely lot! DGD home and I'm making the best of a break I have her at the weekend while mum goes back to work.

Iambuffy · 18/04/2019 22:39

Glad to hear the update sos

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 22:41

red I completely missed that another reason for Farage forming the new party was to escape the fines on UKIP for his previous misdeeds

Until your post, I'd been assuming that Farage formed a new party for these reasons:

  1. He was fed up with the chaotic losers in UKIP,
    whom he described as people he would "never employ"

  2. worried that Batten's swing to the even further right would put off voters and prevent UKIP ever becomong one of the main parties

  3. Batten inviting far right icons like Robinson and Sargon, who would be rivals for power
    and not let Farage keep UKIP as his personal fiefdom.

mathanxiety · 18/04/2019 22:50

SongsofExperience I agree there is a common thread wrt those Meghan trolling, misogynistic, racist losers - the c h a n and g a b sites. Ditto incels. There is a tie in with communities of gamers and UKIP support mentioned upthread.

I think there are people out there who spend so much time gaming online that real life and its values don't intrude much on their consciousness. They speak of murder and rape as if they are normal daily events and without a trace of secrecy or a hint that what they are discussing is criminal activity and horrific treatment of other human beings. A whole generation of men has been brought up with the values of violent fantasy as their reference points.

prettybird · 18/04/2019 22:54

In the interests of precision, let's lay the oft-quoted canard that the 2016 EU Referendum was "the biggest ever democratic exercise that the UK has ever seen" Hmm to rest, once and for all Angry

Quite apart from the very relevant and mathematical point that with an increasing population, percentages are more relevant than absolute numbers ( ContinuityError has already mentioned the 84% turnout in 1950, but well over 70% used to be the norm Confused)....

....the absolute number in 2016 is not the highest turnout Confused. 33,577,342 voted in the Referendum, just 72.2% of the electorate, whereas 33,612,733 voted in the 1992 GE - an even more impressive 77.7% of the electorate Shock

So don't let ANYONE repeat that trope that it was "the biggest democratic exercise ever" without being challenged with the pesky facts Angry It's a LIE Angry

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 22:55

Great news, sos !
Hopefully she can soon resume her normal life

  • but one exception might be to avoid travel to any country where she would have trouble getting medical treatment if she needed it

From experience with my late mum, I had to go through travel & health insurance policies with a fine tooth comb
Basically, Mum could only travel within the EEA (and even that would now not be wise if there is a No Deal Brexit)

e.g. Mum couldn't go to the US or any other country where health insurance excluded her conditions,
or to Middle East countries where she had family members, because medical services were not of a standard we could risk.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 18/04/2019 22:56

What

A lie about Brexit and the referendum pretty ?

Noooooo....surely not!

SwedishEdith · 18/04/2019 23:04

About "the" Wink referendum being the "biggest democratic exercise in UK history" - some data:

Westminstenders: A False Sense of Security
Sunshine1239 · 18/04/2019 23:07

Seriously- you’re quoting data 20 years old?! I’m embarrassed for you

SwedishEdith · 18/04/2019 23:09

Oh dear.

Peregrina · 18/04/2019 23:11

Only 3 UK wide referendums/referenda though. And after all, these are the only form of democracy which count now.Grin

With the exception of the GFA referendum, none of them really seem suitable to put to the public. The sort of question needs to be one with a yes/no answer e.g. should we get rid of that dreary dirge which is the national anthem. Even then if the answer is yes, to replace with what?

Does anyone know/remember what the question was for the GFA? If it was 'do you want peace?' Yes or No, who in their right mind would say No?

taeglas · 18/04/2019 23:12

Great to hear your update sos

Opponents of a new vote in the PLP are circulating a letter that will urge Labour’s negotiating team to agree a Brexit deal without insisting on a referendum.
www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/04/labour-mps-urge-corbyn-drop-second-referendum-demand

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 23:25

What's embarassing to think that history didn't begin only 20 years ago ?

Icantreachthepretzels · 18/04/2019 23:28

Nothing prior to 2016 or post 2016 matters BigChoc - you know that Wink
Democracy happened on one day. It was great. it was glorious. and now it's done. To pretend otherwise is just cringemakingly embarrassing for all of you Blush Blush Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2019 23:29

Peregrina The NI referendum was very specific, about whether voters wished to accept the GFA, the full text of which was made available

Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement referendum, 1998
"Do you support the agreement reached at the multi-party talks on Northern Ireland and set out in Command Paper 3883?"