Not in my children's name

[drivinmecrazy]

I am getting increasingly angry with this whole issue.
My children were born into a world where they were allowed to dream beyond borders, they had no deal of Empire or even the commonwealth. They were children of an harmonious block of neighbouring allies.
Yet those of us of another generation are doing our utmost to take these opportunities away from them without any good reason.
How are my children's lives going to be improved by Brexit? How are their dreams going to be enhanced by shutting our borders and closing our minds?
As an adult I'm not convinced by the economic benefits we would gain, as a parent I'm certain my children will not benefit from living on a tiny island without favourable economic trading opportunities with our nearest neighbours, or without freedom of movevent of dreams.
I'm crying inside for the things our children may not forgive us for in the future.
My own children are 13 & 18. As you might expect my elder child is desperately hoping for a PV, as are most of her friends. My 13 year old wants to know why we consider ourselves so different to the rest of the EU.
Do you ever think about what is being taken from your children?
I know this is a rather emotive post but I am just so bloody angry on my DD's behalf.
We are not only responsible for the here and now, we need to think to the future generations

There will be any number of people, from the EU and more importantly beyond, who would be willing to come to the U.K. I am not concerned about that.

I am not willing to get into a pointless argument relating to the fact that I do not have psychic abilities. We all vote based on what we think will be best in the years ahead. Whether it is or not remains to be seen. It surprises me that people cannot see that a vastly increasing population leads to social problems stemming from that fact.

The situation for young people in France is not great at the moment too.

Unemployment for young people not dissimilar to the U.K. (headline figures distorted by the much higher participation in higher education in France).

No university tuition fees. Students get housing benefit and/or subsidised housing. Public transport is cheap and mostly reliable. Healthcare is accessible including good mental health care.

Nowhere's perfect ~shrug~

Oh ffs. This is typical of European superiority. No wonder you’re all so racist and exclusionary. Those of us who grew up outside the EU didn’t have closed minds (or closed boarders for that matter). If anything I would say that the EU has made British people very Eurocentric and closed minded. The fact that you think that cutting ties with Europe is somehow isolating Britain from the world illustrates that. Really, I am sick of this handwringing and the ‘but the world!’ refrain. No, Europe is just one continent. Maybe leave the little club (it really is a club with a very exclusive mentality and a strong expectation that members will conform to its rules) will actually open Britain up to the world.

There is more to the World than the EU. For information EU represents about 17% of World Trade. So outside the EU there is 83%.

There might be 83% in the rest of the world, but the single biggest factor that decides where countries anywhere in the world trades with is geography. The enormous trading block right on our doorstop is always going to be who we do most trade with. So it’s not a question of question of reading elsewhere it ‘s how do we get the best deal with our largest trading market. And that is almost certainly not by leaving it and attempting to trade with it as a third country.

So to be clear, you don't actually know any benefits to brexit, but you feel certain trashing the economy, screwing the GFA, destroying the science and research collaborations and unsettling the lives of millions, is worth it because you hope - without a single shred of evidence - it might perhaps result in cheaper houses, and better NHS, social care system and traffic management in thirty years time?

What do you mean "open Britain up to the world"? Do we not trade with the rest of the world now?

No, helmet, but to be honest, I am not really up for a huge argument. Just trying to explain that there are/were downsides to being in the EU and FOM as well as positives.

Except that you haven't explained any downsides and you seem to be ignoring that Brexit will put British companies at a disadvantage with non-EU countries too.

I wouldn’t waste a second worrying about list future opportunities. You should be worrying about the economy you‘ll be raising them in.

Lost

No, Europe is just one continent

The only continent we are part of. The continent we are closest to economically, politically and socially. While there are many continents this is the one that it makes most sense to join with.

Most other continents have local trade deals this is entirely logical.

Given the ‘downsides’ wouldn’t it have been better to use the controls over FOM we already had rather than going straight for the nuclear option first?

Of course the world is larger than just Europe.

Europe is close. It is cheap to go there. We do not need visas to go there. We don't (at the moment) need visas to study, work or retire there. We do need visas to work, study or retire in most of, if not all of, the rest of the world. You can't just rock up in the US and get a job in a bar, for example.

I asked you for some positives from Brexit. You just gave a random list of things you'd like to happen.

Most people would like more affordable housing, great NHS and social care.

Do you not understand that by running down our economy that those are less likely to happen? That the experts in the NHS, science and in social care also think Brexit will be hugely damaging?

'A world without borders... Living harmoniously with our neighbours...'
Except your neighbours are changing and not for the better.

Except your neighbours are changing and not for the better

And if that happens you need to work with and support your neighbours.

History shows when there is conflict in Europe we end up involved whether we like it or not.

We need to work with and support our neighbours not run away.

Part of why the EU was set up afterall...

And of course, there are no forces beyond the EU that threaten our security, none at all...

Practically, my DS may not lose out on that much as he is entitled to an Italian passport so if he wants to do Erasmus later etc he can.

Its the rhetoric around Brexit I find most upsetting, it feels like the country is going backwards (especially in terms of racism, and DS is mixed race), and becoming more insular and selfish.

It's just completely the opposite of how I want to raise him.

On the plus side, Brexit has reignited my love of Politics (I did Politics and IR at uni) and my preschooler has watched a lot of BBC Parliament with us.

@helmetbynight I meant culturally and intellectually. There is very little cultural exchange with non-European countries at the moment with America being the main exception. Most ‘global’ trends in the UK are actually filtered through the US or other European countries. It’s like walking into the early 00s sometimes.

@windowsareforcheaters you are voicing the reasoning behind slowbalisation. It’s dumb. It’s only going to set back human development if we regress back into regional blocks of trade and culture. With the advent of the internet the human race should become one race in the truest sense. Organisations like the EU are segregationist. They segregate their member states from the global econonany with threats of economic ruin if they choose to break free. They segregate the rest of the world, the non-chosen, with protectionism, irrationally high regulatory burdens, mutually agreed external tariffs, a difficult to negotiate trade deal negotiation process.

The EU was built in the context of a world of two super powers. The EU was meant to revive European influence in a world dominated by America and the USSR. The goal was a European super power. That is rationale behind the ever closer union. Binding nations closer together is supposed to strengthen the nations by virtue of a larger share of the global market acting as a stick with which to beat potential trading partners and exclusionary policies that increase harmonisation and unity at the cost of individual power to negotiate global trade strengthens the union by making it increasingly difficult to leave (as brexit has demonstrated). The EU was inspired by despotism tendered successful by sheer size. It is more benevolent than its models but the parallels cannot be escaped.

To think of the EU as a force of goodness and openness which only gives people rights and opportunities is naivety boardering on stupidity. Even reading the ECHR for example it’s clear that the EU gives woth one hand and takes woth the other. The question isn’t what the EU gives us, the question is what it costs and is that worth it (I’m not saying it’s not FYI, more that people need to recognise the opportunity cost). Increased integration with our immediate neighbors costs us better interconectedness with the rest of the world. If you can’t see that then you are blind and you need to ask yourself why. Is it because you’ve been told something so many times that you don’t question it? Is it that you have been so preoccupied with the easy options you’ve been given that you haven’t bothered to actively seek opportunity? Is it because your ‘freedoms’ have actually trappedypu by making you and everyone else indifferent to experiences and knowledge you need to work for? Has a small amount of experience and cultural diversity deceived you into arrogantly believing that you know everything or the your European connections somehow Male you global?

I not saying that the EU is all bad or that Britain should leave merely that most British people are astonishingly ignorant for the century we live in and their EU status encourages that.

I meant culturally and intellectually. There is very little cultural exchange with non-European countries at the moment with America being the main exception. Most ‘global’ trends in the UK are actually filtered through the US or other European countries. It’s like walking into the early 00s sometimes.

Is this a joke? There is a huge amount of cultural and intellectual interchange between us and the rest of the world. I was, among 1000s of people who went to live in the Far East for years on Govt programmes. We have strong links with many countries outside EU - and most of those countries esp Japan, India and Australia are bloody incredulous at what we are pointlessly doing to ourselves.

So we needed to leave the EU to learn more and collaborate more with the rest of the world?

Absolute rubbish.

Don't tell me you really thought that Brexit was about being a more global and culturally diverse nation. I mean, you really weren't paying attention if you did.

Helmet why are you being so rude to everyone?

This is why leavers are quietly maintaining their stance - why they won despite remain predicted to win the whole time. They are just pulled apart on every thread so don’t bother voicing anymore - doesn’t mean opinions have changed.

Perhaps leavers don’t believe the things you predict? Perhaps they agree with the other half of parliament who also have access to facts that you don’t and are still happy to leave. If you go through the brexit board it’s full of remainers having a go. You’re actually worsening your cause - leavers will just dig their heals.

It’s only going to set back human development if we regress back into regional blocks of trade and culture.

I’m not whether that is regression, but even if it is, then aren’t we too far down that road? What benefits are there to the UK at this moment of trying to negotiate trade deals with trading blocks as a single country? If it’s not the EU it’ll just be a different trading block.

You could argue that by leaving we’re leading the way in changing how global trade works, but if anything the incompetent and ill-informed way we seem to be carrying out negotiations is having the opposite effect.

@helmetbymidnight how can you live in Asia (? Wtf isthe Far East, nobody says that, how Eurocentric of you). Have you actually tried to understand these cultures you claim to be in touch with? Matcha only became a thing in Britain like two years ago ffs. And Asian skincare has only just been ‘discovered’. British people know fuck all about the finer points of Asian cultures and quite frankly don’t even understand Australians properly. They think that Australia is an extension of Essex ffs. I say all of this as an Australian myself. Our reaction to brexit (and many other things) is far more nuanced than merely mirroring Britain which is what a lot of you seem to think. Check your prejudices. You are looking at these places with European eyes and seeing very little.

@rafaisthekingofclay slowbalisation is a very very recent trend. The phrase was only brought in to popular parlance this year for example. It only started happening after the crash.

im not pulling apart leavers, im looking at their 'arguments'. i want to know why they think the nhs will be better funded post brexit or why they think we dont have relationships with the rest of the world.

this is a discussion thread about politics- do people not understand that? it is normal to be challenged on your opinion- it is not normal to stomp off when youve been challenged or to go 'ooh she challenged my opinion, shes horrid- that makes me love brexit more than ever'.

the other half of parliament? huh- who do you mean?