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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 20:44

{I'd hope any replacements would be a little sympathetic to the UK's position.}
When you have members of the HoC and Farage wanting to be an MEP again with several saying publicly they want to damage the EU from the inside I would hope maximum diplomatic hostility by the EU. The UK is behaving disgracefully. 3 years with no decision taken is so far beyond taking the piss.

TalkinPaece · 08/04/2019 20:47

RTB
I agree with your priorities
being IN for Eurovision is worth all the stress Grin

prettybird · 08/04/2019 20:51

Scooby Just gone and had a look properly at the Scottish 2014 EU Parliament elections: there were also Britain First and BNP candidates Shock. We obviously don't want anyone to vote for them Shock And I presume if Farage deigns to participate Wink, there will also be a Brexit Party presence Hmm - unless of course he decides that Scotland is a lost cause Shock here's hoping Wink

Dockray · 08/04/2019 20:53

Does anyone else have a little fantasy about the UK's Eurovision entry coming out on stage wrapped in the EU flag? The song "bigger than us" seems made for a political commentary...

HesterThrale · 08/04/2019 21:00

The article posted earlier about the Tory party's inevitable decline due to younger people voting Labour etc.

You don’t get any prizes for knowing that young Britain is skewed considerably towards Remain and Labour.

www.conservativehome.com/platform/2019/04/james-kanagasooriam-the-left-right-age-gap-is-even-worse-for-the-conservatives-than-you-think.html

Also educated people were more likely to be Remainers. So how old are most graduates?

Education was a bigger factor than age in determining how people voted. So when we say that graduates are more likely to vote remain, are we actually saying that younger people are more likely to vote remain?

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/labour-mp-is-right-better-educated-people-more-likely-to-vote-remain

We may have to thank Tony Blair for some of this... 'Education Education Education'. His aim in 1997 to have 50% of young people go to University means that of people in their 20s and 30s there is an unusually large proportion of graduates. Probably likely voting Remain. And less likely to vote Conservative?

The Tories must be concerned.

GroovieGazelloo · 08/04/2019 21:06

To All Westminstenders getting their act together for forthcoming elections,can I suggest you start working on your leaflets pretty quick ?
This UKIP one could prove tough to beat...

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
woman19 · 08/04/2019 21:06

Has anyone ever heard of Melassa Kite? (Spectator) Just on Channel 4 news, 'debating' with Peter Oborne. She gets paid to write? Or speak?

"If the Brexit campaign had fought a general election, they'd be out of office." Peter Oborne. ( ex pro brexit Daily Mail writer?)

" I think we have to be honest"

Hats off to him. Halo

Does anyone else have a little fantasy about the UK's Eurovision entry coming out on stage wrapped in the EU flag
(probably not Grin) Eurovision entry for next year: Alistair Campbell playing Ode to Joy and then Campbell Town Loch I wish you were Whisky (?) (not sure what the jig is) Lots of Yorkshire folk have been doing #Sodem proud for the last week. Star

twitter.com/snb19692/status/1115281949222895617

HesterThrale · 08/04/2019 21:11

Leclerc I partly agree.
When you have members of the HoC and Farage wanting to be an MEP again with several saying publicly they want to damage the EU from the inside I would hope maximum diplomatic hostility by the EU. The UK is behaving disgracefully.

Yes, the EU must be getting fed up with the UK's procrastinations and sabotaging MEPs. But Tusk in particular seems aware of, and sympathetic to, the reasonable masses who are ill-served by their representatives. (Must we all suffer for their behaviour?)

Do you really hope for 'maximum diplomatic hostility by the EU'?

WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 08/04/2019 21:14

Thanks, pretty, that’s interesting! (And scary re. the Britain First/BNP candidates Shock).

I guess we need to wait for more info about who is standing and then work out how to campaign locally? My local area is very very remainy so possibly more a matter of encouraging people to actually get out and vote and explaining the way the votes work throughout Scotland and the need to keep out UKIP (I may need to brush up on the exact details Grin)

Surely not worth Farage’s time trying to field candidates here Wink

Sostenueto · 08/04/2019 21:17

Tbh though obviously I welcome an extension so that something can be sorted but on the other hand I wonder by kicking the bucket down the road constantly is maybe not being constructive in making Parliament make its bloody mind up or May realising she really does have to start negotiating in all senses of the word by dropping her bloody red lines! I think some pressure needs to be there to force them to decide. A gun to their heads would be very conducive to reaching agreement pretty sharpish.Grin

Sostenueto · 08/04/2019 21:20

groovyShock

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 21:21

Replacements for Tusk & Juncker:

Tusk is the best friend we have and no replacement is likely to be so fond of us

Juncker was friendly, but understandably seems to have given up on the UK the last couple of months

However, his likely replacement is the EPP SpitzenKandidate Manfred Weber, who so far has sounded much tougher towards the UK

tobee · 08/04/2019 21:22

Hello! Good evening helpful people!

Been keeping up to date with thread. Trying to find out what has happened so far today in H o C, H o L and Europe? About withdrawal, please.

havingtochangeusernameagain · 08/04/2019 21:22

I am now told by reliable sources that the most likely outcome of the special summit on Wednesday is another kicking of the Brexit can down the road, but only till a bit after the elections for the European Parliament at the end May...so that a potential no-deal Brexit cannot infect these elections, but not so far that all pressure to sort Brexit dissipates

Bum. Yet another cliff edge. What's the point of that? And can it please not be right in the middle of GCSE and A level (and Scottish? school) exams.

Sostenueto · 08/04/2019 21:22

What amendments did HoL make to Coopers bill? Or have I missed it on thread?

woman19 · 08/04/2019 21:23

A gun to their heads would be very conducive to reaching agreement pretty sharpish.grin
Ill advised comment there Sostenueto

We don't say, or do that sort of thing. They assassinated one of our own. She had little children.

havingtochangeusernameagain · 08/04/2019 21:25

his likely replacement is the EPP SpitzenKandidate Manfred Weber, who so far has sounded much tougher towards the UK

He's not remotely going to be on our side. And you've got Selmayr too.

I wish they'd picked Alexander Stubb instead of Weber.

Sostenueto · 08/04/2019 21:26

woman19 it was meant as a joke. SorryFlowers

1tisILeClerc · 08/04/2019 21:29

{Do you really hope for 'maximum diplomatic hostility by the EU'?}

Against those who are knowingly lying or have failed to understand what is at stake, despite this process having been going on for 3 years, yes.
To allow the UK to significantly damage the EU project, which has plenty of other difficulties to overcome, is so wrong and dangerous. The EU needs the UK to be an ally, not a massive source of unrest. There is no sign of the UK forming a strong pro EU focused government so this is why I think the UK should part ways.
Reading the online versions of several UK newspapers the image presented by the UK is not good and there is no one 'at the top' who can really take charge. It is of course very moving that the peaceful march and the petitions to remain are going well but until there is a significant shift to wish to be pro Europe it is difficult to know what is best.

MockerstheFeManist · 08/04/2019 21:30

There are few if any UKIP MEPs left. Most if not all have quit in disgust at Batten's antics and are now Independents or gone with the Farage Party.

woman19 · 08/04/2019 21:30

We keep the peaceful line. Sos ☮️Hard work, but it's got to be done.🇪🇺 Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 21:31

Barnier's statement in Dublin

repeating that No Deal means signing up to the 3 key elements of the WA - backstop, exit bill & permanent expat rights - before the EU will even start negotiations

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2019/apr/08/brexit-latest-news-live-theresa-may-union-most-likely-outcome-if-labour-and-government-can-compromise-says-minister-live-news?page=with:block-5cab65658f08bc7376ae9282#block-5cab65658f08bc7376ae9282

Barnier is saying that even if the UK were to leave without signing the withdrawal agreement, it would have to accepted the pledges in that agreement, including on the backstop, if it ever wanted a trade deal with the EU.

Barnier and his fellow EU leaders have made this point before, but perhaps not as bluntly as Barnier did just now.

GaspodeWonderCat · 08/04/2019 21:33

Cooper-Letwin passed by HOL. Being debated in commons, vote about 10pm. Then royal assent and job done (I wish).

EP bill (SI) done.

labour and Tory still talking about talking.

EU - France, Germany Netherlands Belgium deciding how long our extension (if any) will be. Teresa waiting on the naughty step. RTB hopes delay is till after eurovision when Alistair Campbell will lead the nation in ode to joy (I might be paraphrasing/making it up on the last bit).

havingtochangeusernameagain · 08/04/2019 21:36

Eurovision is separate to the EU anyway. It's the EBU, not the EU.

And we can't be relegated.

That's one European organisation I would be happy to leave. Can we leave the EBU, and tell Leavers we left the EU instead?

Sostenueto · 08/04/2019 21:38

Got a surprise visit from my bestie from Luton today. She too is recovering from cancer though 15 years younger than me.
So i won't be on too much this week till she goes back home. I don't like going to Luton it is quite scary. We went bowling one day in centre of Luton and I got aggressively accosted 6 times in less than 50 yards by beggers of all nationalities. It was frightening tbh. My friend said there is a mixture of professional beggers and genuine ones. She added they are getting increasingly violent and she never goes into the town alone now. That really is a bad state of affairs.Sad and I wonder how it has been allowed to get so bad.

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