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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
RHTawneyonabus · 06/04/2019 14:00

Title’s great. Thanks Red

DivisionBelles · 06/04/2019 14:01

PMK

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
WhatWouldScoobyDoo · 06/04/2019 14:07

PMK, thank you red

tobee · 06/04/2019 14:07

It's always fascinating to observe the relationship that France and the UK have now and historically; especially remembering de Gaulle, Europe and us!

1tisILeClerc · 06/04/2019 14:10

I am in agreement with usuallydormant.
Time to 'do it' whatever 'it' is.
If the 'grand plan' (by external forces) is to destabilise Europe, it is beginning to have effect and for the good of 500 Million it needs to stop.

WW2 fighting was 'only' 6 years, the UK has buggered about for half this time.

1tisILeClerc · 06/04/2019 14:13

TheNorthWestPawsage.
Was your pic taken by your cat doing a 'mouses view' version of a selfie?

Tonsilss · 06/04/2019 14:16

.

PortiaCastis · 06/04/2019 14:17

Just seen this article and it confirms the fact that we do need EU workers.

www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/cornish-daffodils-left-rot-lack-2716754

dontcallmelen · 06/04/2019 14:26

PMK, thank you Red & all contributors ☕️🍰 just feeling a bit more afraid this week than I was last week, I think I was hoping for something constructive from the talks between May & Corbyn & possible compromise I’m also out with my cousin & his wife tonight, whom I love dearly but are rabid Brexiteers so will be desperately trying to avoid all talk of the dreaded B word.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 14:27

The financial markets have apparently said they need a couple of weeks to prepare to handle No Deal

I've read normally reliable sources saying this - looks like red has too - but I don't know if it is just conning us all to get an extra 2 weeks for May to avoid it

Hopefully Westministenders in the financial sector can clarify

My WAGs (Wild-Arsed Guesses) are that they need to prep systems that are sufficiently robust to handle:

. Sterling crashing through the floor
. Maybe ended as a global reserve currency
. Interest rates rocketing if the govt tries to borrow from abroad
. The bulk of Financial Euro business being transferred to Frankfurt, Paris & Dublin
. Big-name British businesses suffering cash-flow problems
. Others going belly-up
. A bank that lent to them, or a major insurance company, going under

. All of this happening at once -
"Everything is on fire and so are the fire extinguishers"

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 14:35

A shambles on which the sun never sets: how the world sees Brexit

Doesn't look like Empire 2.0 will do well.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/06/a-shambles-on-which-the-sun-never-sets-how-the-world-sees-brexit

A New York Times columnist believes the UK “has gone mad”.

How, asks a Russian TV host, can Britain fail so spectacularly “to correlate its capabilities with reality”?

For Australia, it’s like “watching a loved grandparent in physical and mental decline”.

From China to Israel and Russia to Brazil, a world well beyond Europe is watching Britain’s Brexit bedlam with sorrow, bafflement and amusement
– and, in those parts of the globe once told that Rule Britannia meant order, stability and shared long-term prosperity, not a little schadenfreude.

“If you can’t take a joke you shouldn’t come to London right now, because there is political farce everywhere,” wrote the New York Times commentator Thomas Friedman.
“In truth, though, it’s not very funny. It’s actually tragic.”
.....
The Washington Post’s Fareed Zakaria said in a piece titled
“Brexit will mark the end of Britain’s role as a great power”
that the UK, “famous for its prudence, propriety and punctuality, is suddenly looking like a banana republic”
....
Even the foreign minister of Venezuela, in the midst of a devastating political and socio-economic crisis, said the British government had been “unable to meet its obligations”.
....
In Britain’s former colonies, there has been amusement
“I am an Indian, and I can tell you that Brits take forever to leave,”
< and ask the Irish >

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 06/04/2019 14:37

Thanks red

jasjas1973 · 06/04/2019 14:38

... i think we are heading for a Revoke.

1tisILeClerc · 06/04/2019 14:38

{Just seen this article and it confirms the fact that we do need EU workers.}

Not necessarily.
It actually means 2 things.
Farmers are not paying unskilled workers sufficiently (the whole package).
More needs to be done to 'facilitate' unskilled workers to take on short term unskilled work.
OK it is controversial but dodging around the issue won't solve anything.

OublietteBravo · 06/04/2019 14:44

I’m just having a final coffee in Limassol before heading for the airport. I’m so pleased I was able to do this trip as an EU national (we flew out on 30 March). Will I still be an EU national on our next trip abroad at May half term? I’ve quite literally got no idea...

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 14:46

No wonder May is so reluctant to legislate for EP elections - even though it's No Deal if she doesn't
Most of these angry voters will be Tories:

Sky Data@SkyData Polls

Would you be angry or pleased if the UK takes part in European Parliament elections in May, or do you not mind either way?

Very angry 30%
Angry 13%
Pleased 11%
Very pleased 17%
Don't mind 23%
Don't know 5%
........

If the UK takes part in European Parliament elections in May, would you:

Vote in them 47%
Boycott them 26%
Wouldn't vote anyway 17%
Don't know 10%

< could be highest ever UK turnout in EP elections, despite 26% saying they'll boycott them - high Remainer turnout ? >

BigChocFrenzy · 06/04/2019 14:46

Enjoy, Bravo

OublietteBravo · 06/04/2019 14:51

I’d be very pleased to be taking part in EU elections, and vote in them. But then I always vote in every election (hardly ever for the tories - occasionally in local elections if they’re local and doing a decent job as a councillor).

borntobequiet · 06/04/2019 14:51

PMK
Cat hiding from DGDs

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
lonelyplanetmum · 06/04/2019 14:54

Real flowers for Red and everyone. Until next Saturday..

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 15:00

FWIW I think the length of time it took the EU to decide on the length of extension last time reveals there isn't postering going on. There is a genuine split in opinion. But the EU is very keen to reach a consensus over this.

France taking a harder line is interesting in itself as its Macron directly challenging the 'status quo' of EU thinking that Merkel has led and is setting him up for a change in influence of the way the EU will go in the future. The French want to be seen to be leading a lot more. Even if he does not win this one, I'd argue its helpful to him to argue to the counter because if there is a long extension and it goes tits up he can go 'I told you so' and if he wins now, then really the sentiment and frustration that UK brought it on themselves is hard to argue against.

It's almost win win for Macron on that front. Certainly domestically. He either demonstrates France's will to cooperate on EU matters or comes out as leading the direction of the EU.

I don't know about whether the markets have said they need two weeks to prepare for no deal. I've just seen numerous reports coming out of France along those lines that the markets need two weeks so that's what they want.

I think it's crucial we do listen to what is really being said by the French and what they aren't saying. Cos the British press have really lost sight of it.

The thing is, an extra two weeks is fine by the EU. Its not running into any political issues. The date of the 7th May might be one May will want to avoid because of local elections. Not that May decides.

OP posts:
MockerstheFeManist · 06/04/2019 15:03

47% say they would vote in Euro-elections in May.

In 2014, the turnout was 35%

Mistigri · 06/04/2019 15:08

< could be highest ever UK turnout in EP elections, despite 26% saying they'll boycott them - high Remainer turnout ? >

Yes I thought that when I saw the 26% abstention figure.

I wonder if they also asked people if they voted in the last EP election? Cos I bet that if they did, people remembered turning out in much greater numbers than they actually did Hmm

I do think there is a possibility of an unusually high turnout in remain areas.

In leave areas it's harder to predict. If I were a leaver I'd be harnessing the anger to garner votes, but there are some very very stupid kippers who are encouraging their own voters to either stay away or spoil their ballots.

lonelyplanetmum · 06/04/2019 15:09

And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

Remembering my hubris/nemesis/catharsis analysis from years ago ( which has probably been my most learned thread contribution!) I think, sadly, the dangerous chaos section may be a pre- ordained part of tragedy.

Mistigri · 06/04/2019 15:12

And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point*

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.*

Really important point, that all leavers and some remainers (who are tempted to think that a good hard Brexit would do some people a lot of good) tend to forget. (#guiltyascharged)

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