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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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67chevvyimpala · 08/04/2019 18:20

I thought TiG were trying to become an official party in time for EU elections?

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 08/04/2019 18:26

According to the Electorial Comission document linked to you can stand as an independent. I’m pretty sure one of my MEPs is an independent. I’ve probably missed something but I can’t see anything in the text that says there’s any minimum time you have to have been a member of an party to stand for them.

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 08/04/2019 18:27

A party not an party 🙄

woman19 · 08/04/2019 18:29

Sorry, I'm not sure vanity Confused perhaps that was just to stand for Labour Wink Rules below.
www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/163523/EPE-Part-1-Can-you-stand-for-election.pdf

havingtochangeusernameagain · 08/04/2019 18:32

Libdems say one year and you have to go through an assessment process.

Not sure about the Tories.

vanitythynameisnotwoman · 08/04/2019 18:33

I guess they can set their own rules. There was a clip of Heidi Allen saying that they have been "inundated" with applications from - she gave a list of very accomplished people - part of me would love to but I can't lose my job for something that might not last long.
So am happily campaigning for my independent local councillor - doing something helps with the frustration and fury.

woman19 · 08/04/2019 18:34

I was talking yesterday to an ex labour MP about EU elections and criteria for standing, and that's what was said, perhaps it's just the Labour party. Babooshka

@faisalislam
NEW: Order to hold European Parliamentary elections has just been laid in Parliament: "Day of Poll order" makes it legal for local returning officers to prepare for the elections now due on 23rd May. Govt says they are not "inevitable" though

OhYouBadBadKitten · 08/04/2019 18:35

The problem for Independents is funding it. £5k deposit, plus campaigning costs.

woman19 · 08/04/2019 18:40

There are Peoples Vote groups in about 200 towns or more. Worth contacting them to see how they will help strategise campaigning; we need one solid pro EUer candidate in every constituency. The other side is well funded. We have the grassroots numbers.

@davidallengreen
Given that it cannot be assumed that EU27 will offer an extension, the only way the Tories could be certain that they will be contesting the European parliamentary elections is if they...

Wink
havingtochangeusernameagain · 08/04/2019 18:45

part of me would love to but I can't lose my job for something that might not last long

I am working freelance at the moment so a short term thing would be fine for me. And maybe it wouldn't be that short term.

I was a member of the Libdems a few years ago. Wish I'd stayed a member now.

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 18:51

part of me would love to but I can't lose my job for something that might not last long

Well Farage seems to manage on a P/T basis ..

67chevvyimpala · 08/04/2019 18:51

I would totally stand as an independent if I had the cash

lonelyplanetmum · 08/04/2019 18:54

Are independent candidates allowed to crowd fund? Maybe we could Westminsternders fund a candidate if that's allowed ?

Youcantscaremeihavechildren · 08/04/2019 18:56

Just seen a news article on BBC London, a gammon farmer, who voted for brexit, bewailing the fact that he doesn't know who he will sell his rape seed crop to... Apparently it was the weather that affected Colins' crops last year, he will just have to 'eek out a living somehow...', this year its politics... I did shout.. No it's fucking not! Its you Colin, its you! 😡

I might just need to not watch the news, ever. My stress levels are through the roof.

Littlespaces · 08/04/2019 19:02

I might just need to not watch the news, ever. My stress levels are through the roof.

I'm the same.

Totally lost it with the poor Tory local councillor that chose the wrong house. My lovely daughter just looked at him and said 'you need to go now!'

woman19 · 08/04/2019 19:04

I would totally stand as an independent if I had the cash

All that's needed is for a pro EU MEP to get in in as many wards as possible.

Already in one of the local home county, tory groups I'm in they are talking about supporting the Greens and Lib Dems for MEP.

I am Labour and will do likewise.

I have a feeling there will be a generation of Westminsterenders and our kids as parish, council councillors, MPs and MEPs coming down the line. Thank you red

And of course for Labour to get its arse in gear and come out for Revoke.

If people can't stand now, 2024 will roll around soon. Campaigners win elections. Smile (sometimes)

Here's our Steve chatting to Francois today. He often has far more interesting and charming interviews with politicians than the professional journalists.
twitter.com/snb19692/status/1115294054403719168

vanitythynameisnotwoman · 08/04/2019 19:11

havingtochange there seem to be loads of local "TIG activist" groups on twitter - maybe that's a way to try to stand?
Would be amazing for something like that to come from here!

DGR I'm not sure Farage was quite the role model I was looking for Grin
Tbh until my health improves I'm very part time anyways so probably not this year's plan, for me.

I have read bother Corbyns statement of today's talks and a quote from Starmer. Were these two in the same meeting?!?

SingingBabooshkaBadly · 08/04/2019 19:14

I was talking yesterday to an ex labour MP about EU elections and criteria for standing, and that's what was said, perhaps it's just the Labour party. Babooshka

Oh of course, I see woman. I wasn’t thinking about the party rules - thought you meant you had to be a member of a party to stand rather than that was the party requirement. Blush

Our MEPs in the SE are four anti EU, including, of course Hannan and Vile-Little-Man-Frog, four, I think pro EU and two I can’t quite work out...

HesterThrale · 08/04/2019 19:17

I'm sure if Independent pro-Remain candidates want to stand, they could crowdfund for the £5000.

There's a hunger for change in the country.

MyEyesAreNotDeceivingMe · 08/04/2019 19:18

I’m just delurking to say hello and thanks for these threads. They’ve been my go-to source for a summary of latest news and views.

Not sure if this has been posted before but even if so, might be worth reposting. It’s an article from Rose Slowe, barrister, suggesting that a no deal Brexit is not the legal default and that legislation would be required. Interesting view and not one I’ve heard of from other sources. Food for thought. ukhumanrightsblog.com/2019/03/19/no-deal-brexit-may-be-unlawful-a-view-from-rose-slowe/

TheMShip · 08/04/2019 19:19

@vanitythynameisnotwoman maybe Corbyn had a little nap and missed something...

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 19:26

horseshit Surely the ERG aren't standing as a separate party ? ConfusedHmm

Funny thng too about the SDP - how parties change:

when they split from Labour in the early 80s,
the main reason declared by the SDP Gang of Four - Jenkins, Williams, Owen & Rogers -
was that Labour was campaigning to Leave the EU 🤦🏻‍♀️

David Owen has certainly changed his tune since then !

OK, the ones who didn't amalgamate to form the LibDems were the awkward squad, but even so ......

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 19:33

Myeyes I've heard of that - and I think Tatiana also posted it on another thread

However, it seems to be a problem in British Law, not international law, so international law wins.
At most, the PM could find herself censured again, which she'd ignore.

A50 just says the country leaves at the end of the 2-year time period unless this is extended.
it says nothing about it having to be orderly

There are no excuses in international law for a country that gets itself into a mess and misses a homework deadline

woman19 · 08/04/2019 19:42

I'm sure if Independent pro-Remain candidates want to stand, they could crowdfund for the £5000. There's a hunger for change in the country

Hester you are quite right. Let's hope PV folks pull their fingers out otherwise it'll be WestminstendersVote CrowdFund. Smile