Westminstenders: Compromise is a difficult word

[RedToothBrush]

Today the HoC had a water leak. It closed the house for the day. This isn't without consequence; any hope for the opportunity of Indicative Votes on Monday had cold water poured on it.

Meanwhile talks between talks between May and Corbyn were about as productive as you'd imagine. But apparently they had nice tea and biscuits.

The Cooper Bill, the last minute lock on May getting a extension to prevent no deal, has been in the Lords today. I say it's been in the Lords but Tories have filibuster Ed on procedure for over 6 hours to prevent the chance of it passing the house. Tory whips are timetabled until 6am but the opposition benches have vowed to go to 7.30am. So far the votes to ruin the procedure have failed comfortably so the opposition have the number. Its just a question of time.

The trouble is with the Lords not sitting tomorrow that means the bill won't get passed until Monday and there are fears it won't get royal assent until Tuesday.

The bill doesn't prevent accidental no deal but it would be a barrier to May.

It therefore looks like May's gambit with the EU to get an extension is to say her plan is ongoing talks with Labour for a cross party solution. It won't wash.

No deal looks more and more likely.

I have a suspicion, nothing more than gut feeling, that some leavers voted leave because (paradoxically) they are against change.

They see their "local" town change, they see people with different languages move in, they see polish markets springing up and they blame this change on being in the EU.

The wish is one of wanting things to stay the same as when they were kids (through some VERY rose-tinted glasses I suspect - "Getting the cane never did me any harm!" sort of thing). As a result, they thought voting against the EU would bring these happy days of no-change back.

The sad truth is that change is inevitable, but it can make people uncomfortable.

Anyone seen my cheese? :-)

Finished too soon....

Sadly, the result of this vote though will be the biggest change that many have seen in their life time :-(

Surely ( if it comes to it) dark blue passports will be more like the American design, just a blue version of the European passport; small and flexible. Not those huge cardboard monstrosities with your name handwritten in the window....

Glad to see i'm not wildly off @wheresmymojo and I have to say fear is the one thing I think is the most complex but visible thread. Fear of many different things for each sub-group but it is why they called Remain facts "Project Fear" as we know, it turned the facts into fiction whilst the leavers got to think none of their argument was based on fear (it's worse to admit fear in these groups, makes you weak) when we know it was emotional and ideological at it's core.

@Misti yes there are the funders, who I see as more similar to Mogg - enough money never to feel the downsides too badly (although they can't be pleased our global rep is in tatters), and saw it as a way for personal gain - dropping 'red tape'. As you say though, these are a small albeit powerful minority.

This is my bedside table at the moment....too many books, not enough time being spent off Mumsnet or watching BBC Parliament

They understand Putin is more dangerous

That's encouraging as we can all agree on that common ground. I thought I was understanding the Leave stance some more but it's the absence of Russian featuring that mystifies me. I think a Remain poster on here once suggested it's because it's real and more threatening but I'd like to hear from a real Leaver on Russia.

Im getting more understanding but when normal people echo Farage type rants why isn't Russia ever mentioned? It's Muslims or Romanians.

Why has a benign trading bloc been the focus for decades. Even on FB leave groups etc Putin never features? Surely it's logical to mention both at least ?

I guess we could acknowledge bravery in being prepared to distance yourself from EU solidarity against Russian activity?

In Farage's case he needs funding from Banks whose wife is Russian so that's why he never mentions it and focusses on Turkey etc. But what about everyone else? As part of the proud to be British mantra why isn't Russian activity hardly ever mentioned as a threat.

dark blue passports will be more like the American design, just a blue version of the European passport; small and flexible

They have to be, it's what the ICAO requires.

we were the product of having had too much as a country for too long and being led by people who had never seen hardship said by Lonelyplanetmum's school pick-up granny.

So true

Sorry I keep thinking I get it and then I don't.

The way I look on it leading membership of the EU (apart from facilitating lucrative trade) is an international insurance policy.

I find it so hard to try and understand the opposite standpoint where our membership was seen as threatening.

I don't think my FiL tries so hard to understand my viewpoint by the way.

Speaking of books to read - this was the lady on Politics Live yesterday who actively told off the State Broadcaster for not countering the false facts and jingoism of Brexit whilst on their show (I was cheering her from my sofa)! Her book certainly sounds like the grass roots of whatever we need to come next Mariana Mazzucato's book. I really need to get back to my books!!!

@lonelyplanetmum I think it's good to remember the eurosceptics were in fact a tiny minority (John Major's The Bastards) and had little influence until Cameron put them centre stage. Yes a tiny minority of fairly wealthy eurosceptics wanted to ditch red tape and make profit but until DC they were not taken very seriously mainly because it was clear how it would not benefit anyone other than their small circles.
FWIW my leaver friend used to watch RT around the time of the ref. She doesn't any more...which I think is interesting. I think she knew it was Russian but wanted to think she was looking/thinking outside the box

I agree with your SA friend btw and think my Argentinian acquaintance was thinking similar when he said that we had had it too good and other countries have had serious struggles for decades.

prettybird
Happy birthday. You are being very naughty, put MN down and do something with your family today.

Absolutely agree @prettybird that our leaders having never seen hardship being part of the problem. Compare JRM and Boris' cosseted existences to Donald Tusk who has been imprisoned and forced into hiding for his political beliefs. So many of our politicians seem to see tinkering with peoples lives as a hobby, they have no passion or cause beyond their own self interest. They've had too much for too long.

Oh yes and happy birthday @prettybird !

Just noticed this very pro remain (is that even still a thing I wonder? Maybe that's why they feel they can have it so clearly now, there's no hope?) article in Sky about the new passports.You'd not get that on the state broadcaster news!

Hello everyone, just joined and have been lurking and reading the Brexit related threads for a couple of weeks, and thoroughly enjoying them, and also learning loads from them! @RedToothBrush your summaries are amazing and help to keep my mind focussed on what's going on. I admit to watching far too much Parliament of late because everytime I step away something new happens!

{So many of our politicians seem to see tinkering with peoples lives as a hobby, they have no passion or cause beyond their own self interest. They've had too much for too long.}
Similarly with inherited (serious) wealth. If you have money it is relatively easy to make lots more and once you have a house or two, and a couple of million in shares etc, the 'posh gambling' can be a way of life, making more money for the 'sport' of it.
Buying and selling companies as 'numbers' is one of the main detractors against share dealing as an ethical way to run life. Companies are people but numbers. Granted it can't be changed now as that is the way the world works, but I am not keen.

Should be 'NOT numbers'!

Just been reading the French papers.
They call Brexit an “interminable imbroglio”

If you just have a glance at Le Monde’s schéma of what’s happened in the last 5 months, you can see why Macron is fucked off. No one in the UK can make a decision.

( report in the diagram is postpone)

Tusk is likeable, grounded and good at what he does. He knows full well he dangers of Nationalism whereas I feel the conservatives are just sleep walking into the far right.

{"In order to use leftover stock and achieve best value to the taxpayer, passports that include the words European Union will continue to be issued for a short period after this date.}
Taken from linked SKY article, quote by 'home office official'.

The most pathetic excuse ever. The Brexit ballsup has cost £66 Billion so far and they are worried about saving a few grand on passport covers?

Gung no is a good way of describing the obnxious prick. I'm not worried about him, like I've said before, he'll do what Merkel tell him. It's our own polticians that worry and scare me.

I would be worried about Macron, actually. Merkel and Tusk have pro-UK "priors", this is less true of Macron. He is a pragmatic and competent politician though so I suspect his position is more about seeking concessions from the U.K. (Spain will want some of those, too) and looking tough ahead of the EP elections, in which he might do a bit better than expected now the gilet jaunes have damaged both far left and far right.

little influence until Cameron put them centre stage

I think we can almost defend DC on this one .. he didn't put the ERG centre stage but just couldn't stand up to them?

Don't you think they garnered more recruits. He delivered four year sage guards on benefits, safeguards on the UK never having to contribute to eurozone bailouts. Also EU acknowledgement to no closer union for the U.K. So he delivered but he still couldn't reason with them and just gave them what they wanted in a fit of pique?

Also the people's long term incrementally increasing interest in UKIP sort of fertilised the party within the Tories too?

Gung no is a good way of describing the obnoxious prick

Ah, here we go... I was wondering how long it would take for the blame to land on Macron.
I personally think his communication style is way too abrupt and often read as arrogant. However please look at the facts: the UK has been driving him around the bend. Brexit does have a real impact on France. I heard on French media that France will roughly suffer 25% of whatever negative impact is inflicted by brexit on Britain. So if it's an utter complete unmitigated disaster for us, it'll be a disaster for France too. That and the gammons (sorry, yellow vests) causing mayhem every weekend and he's pretty much had enough. I dread his veto because it's plausible. I selfishly also dread it being originally French. You just have to remember that at the last presidential election it was a choice between him and Bannon-backed LePen, who is very much liked by alt-right types and has no effing clue about anything except for dog-whistle populist rallies.
There's no telling where we would be now if she'd been in charge.
Dear friends, it's already been hard being an EU citizen in the last 3 years, and I've expected anti French sentiment from leavers, but if remainers turn against my country of origin specifically as well (which I very much fear will happen) then I don't think it will be bearable for me. Even with my beautiful burgundy (still EU) British passport...

Youcantscareme
Dh, from Ireland, knows backwaters pretty well, lived in Galway and called it the graveyard of ambition, beautiful city but he just couldn't cope with Ireland... He gets it, when I say I don't ever want to go back, he feels the same about Ireland, although beautiful, he's lived in the middle of nowhere too and hates the small mindedness, but it's nothing on the scale compared to Lincolnshire...

What generation is your DH? My mother grew up and went to university n Galway city in the 50s and 60s. Even then Galway would have been fairly progressive. I have spent a lot if time there and did a PG in NUIG. I have also lived in NI, London, italy and the US and Galway is easily one of the best places I have lived. I honestly do not recognise it as the 'graveyard of ambition'. It is a vibrant, multicultural city with a strong arts culture and lots of high tech industry. I think the Ireland of the 21st century is very different from 30-50 years ago. In fact we are hoping to relocate there in the next year or so.