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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 11:44

Incidentally if the US started cracking down on visas, there could be a lot of affected people since a lot of US interchange airports don't have transit lounges which mean if you are passing through you are forced to enter US jurisdiction. Meaning (a) you need a visa to pass through and (b) they can "snatch" you if they think you're a person of interest.

Probably a good place for Nish Kumar or Romesh Ranganathan to avoid then ....

Mistigri · 01/04/2019 11:45

I'm supposed to fly to EU with work on 15th April - so if Spain get their way and block the legislation, I'll need a visa?? But presumably with such short notice no one will know how I can get one or if I could get one in time??

This is why I am not planning any work travel until we know when Brexit is. I have meetings in London in May but I'm telling everyone that my attendance is subject to Brexit not having happened. I'm not risking being on the wrong side of any border without the right paperwork. I might do it for a family emergency but for work - no way.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 11:47

Education has been very lacking in the UK.

None of us understood the ramifications of this referendum.

ContinuityError · 01/04/2019 11:49

DGR yup - I have known people transiting through US airports to Caribbean holidays deported, even though technically they are in transit and not officially entering the US (doesn’t matter if there are transit lounges or not).

A friend recently flying to Canada had a lucky escape when his was the last flight to land before diversions to US airports because of bad weather. He can no longer get an ESTA but has to get a visa, which is proving tricky.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:51

Kevin Schofield@polhomeeditor
If MPs can agree on an alternative to May's deal tonight (big if, of course) it looks as though we'll see a run-off vote between that and the deal on Wednesday.

ARRRRRRRGHHH!

BUT. THE. INDICATIVE. VOTES. ARE. NOT. A. SEPARATE. Thing. TO. MAYS. DEAL. ONLY. THE. PD!!

They might still need the WA which is the deal. The PD isn't a deal, merely a statement of intent.

Getting v. Annoyed at 'professional' journalists now.

This is negligence from political journalists.

OP posts:
Mistigri · 01/04/2019 11:55

I find it extraordinary that a bunch of women (and a few blokes) chatting on social media seem to understand the legal process better than political editors or MPs.

Genuinely extraordinary.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 11:55

Worrying.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 11:56

There was no talk of politics when I was growing up aside from despairing at the government of the day.

My Mum wasn't really political, but very informed. Probably more liberal at heart but forced towards the Tories by the more left-wing nature of Labour. Mainly a petition activist, although (to DFs annoyance) she got herself arrested with some other school mums after staging a sit-in blocking a road after a lad was killed by a speeding car (it worked - they blocked the road off).

My Dad was much more cynical, coming from a country that had endured Mussolini (my Mum always spoke with a respect and admiration that my nonna told the blackshirts to "go away" when they turned up to enlist the ONB - his view was more of the "whoever you vote for the government wins". Occasionally we'd hear tales of relatives and countrymen who were involved in the partisans. Someone in the village was in the brigade that hauled Mussolini up at the petrol station ...

The ongoing theme of my childhood was my DM insisting that Britain was somehow special and therefore immune to facism, and my DF sighing and saying there was nothing special about Britain - or any country in the world. He was deeply critical of that Italian lionising of America. Which was curious considering his DM was American (and it's a sore point we only found out too late, or I'd be a natural US citizen).

Years ago, when there was an ongoing debate about the high-speed portion of the channel rail link (London to the coast) my DF looked up and asked why they didn't get a ruler, and draw a straight line and that's where the railway goes - maybe Mussolini had a point ...

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 11:57

{Getting v. Annoyed at 'professional' journalists now. }
We need to calm down and think of the patronising voice of Michael Winner? 'calm down dear it's only a clusterfuck'.
Yes his pants should be laced with holly or gorse forever.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 11:57

This is negligence from political journalists.

You can only be negligent if you know the correct action and fail to undertake it.

You can't be negligent if you are incompetent.

Mistigri · 01/04/2019 11:59

It's that old thing about the difficulty of getting someone to understand something when his job depends on him not understanding it.

1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 12:00

{I find it extraordinary that a bunch of women (and a few blokes)}
Certainly more thought and research has been put in by those on Westminsterenders. I exempt myself from this and am happy to be the class idiot.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 12:03

People who say they don't understand something and ask questions usually end up being the most informed.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 12:08

I find it extraordinary that a bunch of women (and a few blokes)

I know it's a bit nit-picky, but currently I'm self identifying as a minor deity from before time. It'll probably pass once we've finished "American Gods 2" but until that time, can we keep it inclusive please ?

Howabout: a bunch of women (and a few blokes) and other intelligent entities that may transcend out understanding. Which has the added advantage of including MPs, journalists and Theresa May without being gratuitously insulting.

PowerKittensUnite · 01/04/2019 12:08

Bigly badger here...needed a name change.

You can only be negligent if you know the correct action and fail to undertake it. You can't be negligent if you are incompetent.

You can be classed as negligent if you don't make reasonable effort to find out the correct action. Ignorance is no defence.

ElenadeClermont · 01/04/2019 12:10

I have to go and see my DM at Easter. I cannot wait for this clusterfuck to end before I see her. It might go on forever at this rate. If the situation is too bad, I will travel on my own.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 12:10

You can be classed as negligent if you don't make reasonable effort to find out the correct action. Ignorance is no defence.

I return to my comment about enforcing rights ...

Songsofexperience · 01/04/2019 12:10

the Home Office decision to try to strip NI born Irish Citizens of their EU citizenship, sure as hell isn't going to help the British cause on this matter.

Just to go back quickly on this issue and to play devil's advocate for a bit: as a naturalised EU/UK citizen I am fully aware that whilst living on UK soil after Brexit my EU rights will no longer be available to me. It does not mean that I'm stripped of my EU citizenship. If I want those rights back, I'd have to move to an EU country. Unfortunately being a Brit in Britain means 'just' having those rights. I don't believe the Home Office is forcing people in Northern Ireland to choose their citizenship as they would still be free, like me, to go to an EU country and exercise those rights. They are still Irish. Basically, they are facing the problems that all EU UK dual nationals are faced with, and indeed all Brits, as we will all be losing our EU rights in the UK. Unless I've completely missed something?

67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 12:10

I'm self identifying as a minor Norse deity atm.

So don't piss me off, ok?

MyNameIsArthur · 01/04/2019 12:11

PMK thank you

havingtochangeusernameagain · 01/04/2019 12:11

The UK government can't start deciding who is and isn't Irish (or any other nationality). We may be a mess, but we're not Iran.

I thought they were just saying that if you were born in NI and were Irish you didn't need to apply for settled status (because you are also British, even if you don't take up your Britishness, it's an entitlement). Seems common sense to me.

Mind you, I didn't think any Irish citizens needed to apply for settled status anyway so I can't say that I am not confused.

SisterMichael · 01/04/2019 12:13

PMK

Peregrina · 01/04/2019 12:13

she said she would happily eat bread and water for the rest of her life!

Invite her round for a couple of days, and serve only bread and water. I think you might find that she changes her tune.

On the Irish citizenship business, my DIL was born overseas to an Irish father, so has Irish citizenship. She's working now on getting it for her British born son.

If you can't enforce a right, that right does not exist. Yes, but Ireland has the rest of the EU behind it, and also has the Irish diaspora in the US and elsewhere. I think it will be Britain which finds that it eventually has to back down. However, I now think it's a matter of time before NI is lost to the UK.

Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 12:13

@SimonBruni
The EU side of my business, once almost 100% of revenue, has all but gone. Clients have switched to EU-based providers. As a taxpayer I feel like I'm paying someone to repeatedly punch me in the face while half the UK cheers them on.

At least I get a vote - EU27 citizens don't.

havingtochangeusernameagain · 01/04/2019 12:15

I am fully aware that whilst living on UK soil after Brexit my EU rights will no longer be available to me

But they will still be available. You will still benefit from freedom of movement, you can still use the EU/EEA queue at passport control etc

I suppose what may not be available are the rights you have via residence in an EU country, you'll be the same as if eg you lived in South Africa or Argentina.

But no I don't think you are missing something - I think the person who tweeted about this has a massive agenda but I can't quite work out what it is. She says something about having been dragged through the courts for four years, but that was way before the referendum so there is clearly something else going on.