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Brexit

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 31/03/2019 22:35

Yep he's an April Fool. No really he is!

Today (1st April - I'm starting the thread slightly early) is the return of Indicative Votes.

This follows the defeat of May's Deal by 286 to 344 on Friday.

The Sunday Press has been full of talk of a Cabinet Collapse with 10 Cabinet Brexiteers threatening to walk, with the support of 170 Tory MPs, if May goes for a softer Brexit or fails to leave the EU by 22nd May regardless of whether this is with a Deal or with No Deal and Remain Cabinet Members threatening to walk if May goes for No Deal.

This is in addition to May's apparent threat that the House was at its limits for the process which has been taken as meaning she is considering a GE. Which both Tory Brexiteers and Tory Remainers say they will block. The threat of a GE has largely been seen as a threat to force MPs to back her deal.

May now faces the choice she has always resisted, which on the face of it, looks like it could cause a split in the Tory Party. She will obviously do everything she can to avoid making that choice. Her solution seems to be MV4 with the Snell / Nandy Amendment, which gives parliament a say in the next phase of Brexit. This theorectically is about the Political Declaration (PD) which the Indicative Votes essentially is about.

However it needs to be stressed repeatedly that the EU have said, that they do not care about the PD and all soft Brexits (variations on May's current PD) also require the WA to pass, such is the EU's distrust in the UK. This would include the Common Market 2.0 suggestion (Boles Amendment 189-283), despite what various MPs have suggested simply because it could be used as a temporary transition by the backdoor and CM2.0 doesn't cover certain aspects of withdrawal such as the divorce settlement, long term citizens rights and fishing rights amongst others. And this is going to be a big issue when it comes to the DUP who are now leaning to a soft Brexit or even revocation.

In light of this apparent Government Nervous Breakdown John Major has raised the prospect of a temporary government of National Unity, which is difficult to envisage how that would work given the current parliamentary polarisation. Indeed Labour have ruled this possibility out.

There has also been comments made that any policy passed by Parliament stemming from Indicative Votes could be ignored by May by her using her status of PM to ask the Queen to refuse to give it Royal Ascent. Which surely would go down a storm with her Majesty to be asked to be embroiled into this political pantomine.

Voting on the Indicative Votes is due to start at 8pm - 8.30pm tomorrow with a debate before it.

The Options on the table (but yet to be selected by the Speaker) are:
A) Baron, unilateral backstop exit.

B) Baron, if no WA by then, no-deal Brexit on 12/4. 160-400

C) Clarke, permanent UK-wide customs union. 265-271

D) Boles, Common Market 2.0 (EEA+CU).
Broadly similar to motion from last week, with some changes. 189-283

^E) Kyle / Beckett, WA + PD approval subject to confirmatory PV. 268-295

F) Jones/Grieve, PV if necessary to prevent no deal. Not previously tabled.

G) Cherry, A50 revocation as default if necessary to prevent no deal.
More detailed version of last weeks motion. 184-293

H) Eustice, EFTA+EEA.
Slightly modified version from last week. 64-377

Clark and Boles amendments are the ones to watch. They have apparently gathered more support since last week. Boles CM2.0 appears to have Labour swinging support behind it, unofficially atm.

May is also under pressure to allow the Cabinet Free Votes this time on the CU vote (they abstained last week). Whether this will happen is still anyone's guess.

There is also talk of an alternative 'Custom's Partnership' idea - a fudge that would see the UK stay in parts of a customs union. This idea has been previously rejected by the EU and the Cabinet. But we know how much May loves her fudges.

Robert Peston is saying tonight that whether May and the Government fall may rest on how much support the Customs Union and her allies are desparate for it to get a parliamentary majority - particularly with support from more Conservatives (it only got 35 Tory Votes last time). This would mark a breakthrough and the first positive majority for Brexit.

If it passes, the suggestion is that MV4 will be Tuesday. Of course it remains to be seen if ERG hardliners who switched last week would continue to support her deal if she goes for a CU option and whether getting a parliamentary majority for a CU plus the Snell Amendment would be sufficient to persuade enough Labour MPs, the DUP and perhaps Tory Remainers to push it over the line.

However May going for the CU could provoke a Cabinet resignations or even splits in the party meaning that MV4 on Tuesday is somehow impossible or at least delayed.

Expect May to keep her cards to her chest about whether she will go for a CU as long as possible as a result. (Possibly NOT before a MV4).

Meanwhile it looks like there might be a storm brewing about the stripping of NI born Irish citizens of their EU citizenship, which seems to be in breech of the GFA.

And the Tory Leadership contest is in full swing. Hunt and Javid have been labelled as The TiTs (Theresa in Trousers), Johnson is styling himself as a One Nation Tory (although he is not a member of the One Nation Group within the party) who will bring sweeping tax cuts, and Grayling is saying the next leader must be a Cabinet Minister with experience and has always been a Brexiteer.

And Finally, David Allen Green raises a concern about a potential new exit day, if it changes from 12 April.

David Allen Green @ Davidallengreen
If a new exit day is not agreed until 10/11 April (ie European Council), there will be not enough time for exit day in domestic legislation to be amended in time before 12 April. It was close this time, with the shift from 29 March.

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Thread gallery
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FusionChefGeoff · 01/04/2019 11:16

I'm supposed to fly to EU with work on 15th April - so if Spain get their way and block the legislation, I'll need a visa?? But presumably with such short notice no one will know how I can get one or if I could get one in time??

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:17

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
Holidays - Commons recess w/b April 8 cancelled

And a decision on the week commencing 15th still to be made.

Sam Coates Times @SamCoatesTimes
One whipping sage following events closely predicts that there’ll be movement tonight in the indicative votes —- but their gut is that still nothing gets over the line

Westministenders: Happy Birthday Chris Grayling!
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Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 11:18

Spain could veto any extension. We are playing with fire.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:19

I'm supposed to fly to EU with work on 15th April - so if Spain get their way and block the legislation, I'll need a visa?? But presumably with such short notice no one will know how I can get one or if I could get one in time??

Fuck knows.

But to reassure you. Neither does the government either at this stage.

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Littlespaces · 01/04/2019 11:22

Not good news.

uk.news.yahoo.com/brexit-stockpiling-hits-record-uncertainty-090723094.html

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 01/04/2019 11:23

Had a chat with some of my football mates yesterday. A real mix of remainders and leavers. Only one of the leavers was a wto/no deal type. The other leavers were far more pragmatic in saying we should always have gone at this slowly and acknowledged the vote was too tight to go hard. They all spoke about the Norway style deal being the thing that swung them, most of them realising that the immigration issues we have here are solvable mainly by us and aren't against FoM just wished we were tighter. Was a very strange conversation where there were about 8 of us all largely agreeing and just one bloke left on his own muttering. Im assuming that the reality of the situation is much more like this, most leavers aren't wto types who shout the loudest. In fact 2 of them said that would be the worst outcome and they'd definitely vote to remain against that option if the chance came up.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 11:28

The whole visa thing could be dynamite if it's enforced properly (the UK seems to struggle with the notion of regulations and enforcement).

Imagine being denied a visa for a criminal record ? That could provoke a very immediate backlash.

There was a lot of truth in Frankie Boyles observation that the current situation is a reflection of terror about having to be in power when the consequences of your decisions can be seen immediately - i.e there's no way to shift the blame forwards a few years while you sneak out of office.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:29

OhHe, what is fascinating is there in what you've said is a ladder for leavers to climb down now.

Both remainers and leavers have the time and space without being confrontational to agree that the government have handled Brexit badly however they voted. And that in turn allows them to say that they would have prefered x or y and thats what they voted for.

Thats a mood change and its significant.

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MadAboutWands · 01/04/2019 11:30

PMK

HunkyDory69 · 01/04/2019 11:31

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:32

There was a lot of truth in Frankie Boyles observation that the current situation is a reflection of terror about having to be in power when the consequences of your decisions can be seen immediately - i.e there's no way to shift the blame forwards a few years while you sneak out of office.

I've not watched the show (yet) but when you posted it the other day, it did really strike me.

There has been a huge amount of can kicking on difficult decisions which has characterised british politics for decades.

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MarshaBradyo · 01/04/2019 11:32

Has Gove flipped to May’s deal or am I losing it? R4

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:32

PFI, Pensions, Power Stations.

All kicking the can.

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DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 11:33

The other leavers were far more pragmatic in saying we should always have gone at this slowly and acknowledged the vote was too tight to go hard.

It's impossible to gauge, but there are definitely a few Leave voters who assumed Remain would win, and who voted leave "for a laugh" (I know one - so there are probably more). On the basis they certainly would vote Remain in a second referendum and haven't really been polled up till now, I wonder quite how much of "Leave would win again" is actually more unicorn hunting from the extremists ?

There's also the fact that quite a few Leavers probably imagined they'd be in the land of milk and honey right now (after all, the brochure promised that) and can't see how re-voting Leave is going to deliver that a second time.

CordeliaEarhart · 01/04/2019 11:34

Richard Harrington is my ex-MP (I moved back up North). From what I remember, the seat certainly isn't a safe one and in the referendum leave won in his area with 50.2% of the vote.

Certainly not someone who should be advocating a hard Brexit if he likes his role as MP.

67chevvyimpala · 01/04/2019 11:35

I know a lot of people who didn't vote

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:36

Nick Gutteridge @nick_gutteridge
Gloves are off from Germany's Europe minister Michael Roth: 'Brexit is a big shitshow. I don’t know if Shakespeare could've come up with such a tragedy, but who will foot the bill?' Says 90% of Cabinet have 'no idea how workers think, live, work & behave'.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-30/brexit-descends-into-name-calling-as-germany-derides-u-k-elite?cmpid=BBBXT040119_BIZ&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=190401&utm_campaign=brexit
Germany Blames ‘Silver Spoon’ U.K. Elite for Brexit Chaos

From a couple of days ago, but not heard this before. Its brutal. But spot on.

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ContinuityError · 01/04/2019 11:36

Imagine being denied a visa for a criminal record ? That could provoke a very immediate backlash.

Keep an eye on what might happen with US ESTAs - have heard that the US might start cracking down on those with a criminal conviction as the US doesn’t recognise UK spent convictions.

EweSurname · 01/04/2019 11:37

Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
There's a new and (I think) jaw-dropping Electoral Commission/Vote Leave revelation coming later this morning. Watch this space.

Jo Maugham QC
@JolyonMaugham
I've being asked to update people the BBC are inviting on as guests to discuss the Vote Leave story but who don't know it as well as I do. You might think the BBC should just have me on to discuss it but that would break its de facto blacklist, wouldn't it
@RobBurl
?

RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:37

Has Gove flipped to May’s deal or am I losing it? R4

Gove has always been pro Mays Deal.

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RedToothBrush · 01/04/2019 11:38

Theo Usherwood @theousherwood
Courtiers at the Palace can rest easy.

No10 has “no intention to involve the Queen” if Speaker blocks MV4 and the Government needs to break up Parliament to have another shot at the vote.

There are also “no plans” to stop Queen from giving Royal Assent to a custom union Bill.

Gosh. Someone has been told in no uncertain terms to kill this story!!!

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1tisILeClerc · 01/04/2019 11:38

TheMostBoringPersonEver
A bit late as I have been attempting to work too.
You may have missed a couple of threads and much discussion but in reality nothing has really progressed.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 01/04/2019 11:41

In fairness I knew the opinion pre ref of 2 of them and they were always soft leavers. I was just surprised at the others. And very surprised at the 2 who did says they'd vote to remain over no deal (one was an original soft leaver, the other I don't know where they initially stood). I think we'd all largely fallen onto the David Allen Green opinion if we've sodded this up, revoke now, figure out what we want to do and go and do it properly, even if that means the leavers suck up remain and or remainers have to suck up cu/cu+sm.

DGRossetti · 01/04/2019 11:42

Keep an eye on what might happen with US ESTAs - have heard that the US might start cracking down on those with a criminal conviction as the US doesn’t recognise UK spent convictions.

Just to tie in with the Irish/EU citizenship issue. The US refuses to abide by the UKs Rehabilitation of Offenders Act (although any grumbles are pretty much neutralised when you realise the UK doesn't abide by it either). How you gonna make it ?

BercowsSilkTie · 01/04/2019 11:43

There was no talk of politics when I was growing up aside from despairing at the government of the day. Mum says my dad didn't discuss politics at all. Conversation when I was about 9/10 about Russia and saying if the Tories were bad then why don't we just vote for the other side. My mum was horrified and said the other side (labour) were even worse. I remember the miners strikes being a thing and seeing Neil Kinnock on tv a lot. I was only young though and didn't know what was going on and no one wanted to teach me. My parents were both appalled when I reached voting age and said I wouldn't be voting as didn't understand what I was voting for with the different parties. There was no internet back then. I wish they'd have directed me to information but they didn't. I argued it was irresponsible to vote when you were clueless instead of irresponsible not to vote.
I hope now that I'm fairly politically aware and talk about things to my children that they will grow up to be politically savvy and active.